Analyzing the Coma "Dream"

[Rightfielder21]

Post your thoughts on the dream sequence here:

What I took from the whole dream sequence was what his life would be like if he wasn't Tony Soprano, mob boss...

If you remember back to season 1 I believe, he is talking to Melfi, and she mentions something about "alternatives" and he says he could sell patio furniture on route 17 or something to that effect...

Anyone notice what his occupation was in the dream sequence?

Initially, he said he started as a patio furniture salesman...

Coincidence I think not…


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rightfie lder21>Rightfielder21</A> at: 3/19/06 9:19 pm

[The Mick]

Thats a good point....more than the actual content of the dream though (and I do agree there are a lot of things within the dream that are not there by accident) is the symbolism of the whole dream he finds himself in.

He has lost his identity, and he can't get home.
Can't get the money that his dream wife wants to wire him, can't get on a plane, thats symbolic of him not being able to wake from the coma.

The alzheimers is symbolic of the brain damage he will have sufferd, which the doctor made refernce to with Carm.



</p>

[billymac]

Good start to this dream sequence discussion Rightfielder. I had a thought similar to yours....Tony Soprano as an ordinary citizen contrasted to Tony Soprano the O.C. Boss was very illuminating. The ordinary (dream) Tony is confronted by adversity, and does not react at all like the ruthless O.C. Tony. He is powerless to solve the bad situations confronting him, he is worried about committing fraud, and he accepts, with impotent resignation the fates that are befalling him.

</p>

[Whacked101]

Agreed. This dream seems to me what Tony's life would be like if he hadn't chosen the path he did. Godd pickup on the Patio furniture salesman info. I think if/when Tont wakes up from this he may realize he spent all this time thinking about having a normal life, but in the dream the "normal life sucks". The woman won't sleep with him, alzheimers, no money, no power, etc. He may begin to appreciate the things he has hat are important: family.

</p>

[Detective Hunt]

I'm actually looking at it as he might be in the future, rather than the past. I'm not suggesting I think Tony will go witness protection (with this scene as foreshadowing), but I do think it shows he is thinking about it. Certainly mixed with The Valachi Papers (from Test Dream) and other such clues, it rings truthful.

Pretty much all of the Finnity moments spoke to different episodes in a life Tony might have as a regular citizen. Compare to Chris's thought at the end of Long Term Parking. I think it is telling.

The character Tony played in those scenes was a normal guy. Yet still had the little irritations. Could he, as normal guy, hack it in those situations? And though not shown, could Carmela?

</p>

[DarngoodCoffee]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>He is powerless to solve the bad situations confronting him, he is worried about committing fraud, and he accepts, with impotent resignation the fates that are befalling him.<hr></blockquote>

I said this in the general comments thread, but it seems appropriate here.

I have read it suggested somewhere that the dream sequence tony is "innocent" tony. I don't think that you can separate between "innocent" and "guilty" tony's. I think that the "black spots" in the brain scan that look like alzheimers are actually the parts of his brain that first, allow Tony to handle the situations you listed above, in other words give him initiative, drive, and the ability to overcome fear. However, they also are the parts that make him somewhat sociopathic and allow him to be the cold-hearted mobster that he is.

You can't have an "innocent" tony unless you also accept an impotent tony.

</p>

[John Sacrimoni]

I just looked at it as his version of Limbo. He couldn't get home, even though he said that he wanted to - he wasn't dead yet, though. He's just stuck there for now.



</p>

[Hrurusch]

looked a bit like he is in control and taking knowingly an outtime from it all.
when the monks arrived in the dream (after he saw the doc, who was looking like the same monk) they told him to loose his arrogance(= wake up), ..but he still is taking the break he was yelling for in vesuv in episode one.

</p>

[Detective Hunt]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I just looked at it as his version of Limbo.<hr></blockquote>
Great observation, John Sac!

</p>

[chrisishot1]

I'm not sure if he is in limbo, but that's a good argument, although he would actually have to be in purgatory. Limbo is (was) for unbaptized babies. Purgatory would tie into the name of his alternate identity KevIN FINNITY. They even made a poor joke about the name of the car. If he is in purgatory, is he here forever because he lost his identity? Carm says he's not going to hell, but he certainly wouldn't go to heaven.

</p>

[John Sacrimoni]

Yeah, Purgatory. That's what I meant.

[smacks self]

</p>

[Detective Hunt]

chrisishot1 - an even better look at that. I don't know my Catholic "death areas" well, I admit. A born and raised Methodist that has struggled with religion since.

But it fits the "questioning" thought I was having, certainly. This is the dream in which Tony ponders what life might be like on the outside. And it seems to show him little answer. A bit like Limbo (which, to be honest, I always thought was another term for purgatory. Blame Dante, and not Sil, - but Allegheri never used the term limbo that I recall.)

</p>

[billymac]

In the dream, the others at the table pick up the dinner tab. This is something the real Tony bit Finn's head off for in a previous episode.

</p>

[billymac]

Also noticed...in the telephone conversation with the wife in the dream...Tony tells her "I miss you". She tells him it is his fault because he has been too busy, too involved with work. Tony realizing that "this thing of ours" is responsible for almost destroying his relationship with Carm and signalling a re-dedication to the nuclear family after (I hope) he recovers?

</p>

[billymac]

Did anyone else notice the Muzak song that was playing as Tony entered his hotel room for the final scene? It was "Day After Day" by Badfinger. The lyrics are:

I remember finding out about you
Everyday my mind is all around you
Looking out from my lonely room, day after day
Bring it home baby make it soon I give my love to you.

I remember holding you while you sleep
Everyday I feel the tears that you weep
Looking out from my lonely gloom, day after day
Bring it home baby make it soon I give my love to you.

Looking out from my lonely room, day after day
Bring it home baby make it soon I give my love to you.

I remember finding out about you
Everyday my mind is all around you
Looking out from my lonely room, day after day
Bring it home baby make it soon I give my love to you.

So...Tony was "looking out from his lonely room"...day after day.

Very eerie

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=billymac 72261>billymac72261</A> http://www.planet-familyguy.com/downloads/wallpapers/rupert/1stewie1024x768.jpg at: 3/20/06 12:25 am

[Mr Gebowitz]

On the absolute surface, if we take the dream at face value, the main thematic elements of the sequence seems to revolve around the idea that Tony is having an identity crises of some sort. While at certain points in the dream the dialogue might seem quite removed from this central idea, at others it is almost painfully obvious with Tony saying things like “I’m Lost” , “I’m 46, Where am I going?”. We must also consider the symbolism of his misplacing his wallet and briefcase and as a result not being able to identify himself to the people around him. He is just a faceless nobody in the dream.

So what is the root cause of Tony’s identity crises? Well if I remember correctly, at some point in the first or second season Tony is discussing his adolescence with Melfi and he makes reference to the fact that his uncle and father were both involved in mafia and then goes on to say “maybe for me, being a rebel in my family would have been selling patio furniture”. I think this goes to show that Tony’s subconscious is entertaining the idea of what a different life might have been for him; one where he is an average Joe who has to deal with all the petty annoyances of everyday life. A person who has to let hotel clerks walk all over him and random people to harass him only to escape unpunished.

Now I don’t think this is the real reason behind Tony’s newfound crises to discover who he truly is. Weather or not he realizes it this is about his Uncle and his Mother and his inability to come to terms with the fact that two members of his immediate family who are supposed to be loving and supportive never appreciated him. Tony’s whole life philosophy revolves around family. Not just in a business sense but also as a sort of religion. To Tony family bonds are the only things that really count. This is why he continued to care for Junior after he tried to have him killed. This is why he blames himself for his Mother’s reaction to putting her in a lovely RETIERMENT COMMUNITY. Even in the dream when the doctor makes reference to Alzheimer’s you can see that Tony still empathizes with his uncle. The same man who has now tried to kill him twice. Even after all this Tony can’t come to terms with the fact that his FAMILY betrayed him. Not Carm or his kids….just Livia and Junior. But that alone is completely enough to shatter Tony’s worldview.

If Tony Soprano isn’t the man who takes care of his family at all costs who is he? What’s the point of being a Mafia boss if you don’t believe in family?


</p>

[billymac]

I think it is no coincidence that in the dream Tony has an obvioulsy Irish name (Kevin Finnerty). When Christopher had his coma dream didn't he see "hell" as an Irish bar?

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Some good thoughts here, guys & gals.

I'm going with shotgun, jumbled observations for now because I don't begin to have a coherent, holistic interpretation yet.

The wildfires of Costa Mesa. Suggestion of hell or some place very close to it. When asked if Costa Mesa is a great place to live, the bartender says it's "dead around here". BTW, does anyone know what "Cosa Mesa" means? I assume "coast" something. Mountains?

Blackened Grouper. Don't know what it means, but I find it curious in view of the fact that Tony has been on a raw fish binge. Suddenly the fish is burned. Possibly a reference again to the proximity to flames.

The briefcase mixup. Someone else took the life he should have had. He even comments that "his whole life" is in the missing briefcase. He also notes that he didn't catch the switch at first because Finnerty's briefcase "looked like mine". It was only after he got inside it that he realized it wasn't his.

Being refused the same hotel room. He gave up his lodging -- his body -- but now needs it back because he is not in fact ready to die. The clerk tells him he can't have it because he already checked out, the rooms are all booked, and he can't draw on the previous account. He suggests Tony try another hotel. Translation: he can come back and have a different body, a different life but can't reclaim his old one. It's gone.

The dark brain spots/Alzheimers. His intuition, premonition, enlightenment, what have you, that he will suffer brain damage as a result of the shooting and cannot be the same person he was. It could also be just a simple, unfounded fear of becoming like his Uncle. And I agree that it could also symbolize his own psychopathology.

Kevin Finnerty, dealer in solar heating products, offering no warranty or contact information, only dissatisfied customers, including monks. God? The sun is God's creation. He is "the light". As the bar customer pointed out, the name connotes "Infinity", i.e., the alpha and the omega. Mrs. Soprano assures Tony that Finnerty will make contact, but so far he hasn't, much like God picks and chooses the ways in which He reveals Himself. The monks blame Finnerty and his defective solar heat for their crappy winter, in keeping with the blame heaped upon God for all mankind's ills.

The airport light on the horizon. Lot's of good interpretations of this already. The one that occurred to me first was that it was a beacon beckoning him to death. He sees his imminent demise on the fading, dimly-lit horizon. The same light appears to be shimmering while he's in the bar.

The phone calls home. They establish his strong love for and connection to his family, his desire to be with them. Yet, after the Alzheimer's diagnosis, he cannot bring himself to call them again. The Moby song supplies all the subtext:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Where were you when I was lonesome?
Locked away with freezing cold
Someone flying only stolen
I can't tell this light so old

I don't want to swim the ocean
I don't want to fight the tide
I don't want to swim forever
When it's cold I'd like to die

What was that my sweet sweet nothing?
I can't hear you through the fog
If I holler let me go
If I falter let me know

I don't want to swim forever
I don't want to fight the tide
I don't want to swim the ocean
When it's cold I'd like to die<hr></blockquote>

This plays while he stares longingly at the horizon. By the end of the episode, Tony is tired of fighting and wants to die.

This is just a start. Will be watching this ep many more times and avidly reading others' thoughts to try and get the most out of it.

</p>

[Soda drink]

Do you guys remember Tony and Carm were talking on the phone in S5 and how the sun shined brightly on Carm...I believe the final dream sequence is in correlation with that S5 scene.

Carmela is going to be the reason behind whatever is Tony's fate in this coma condition.

Since we all know that Carmela is the best thing for Tony on every level...I think everything will be OK for Tony.

</p>

[tangled]

Ohhhh! The being refused the same room analogy didn't occur to me at ALL! Thanks, Fly.

But 'blackened' food doesn't mean it's burned. It's a matter of seasoning and spices that results in 'blackening'.

Oh and i'm SO glad someone besides me picked up on that song as Tony was entering the hotel room and kicking off his shoes. The way it ended abruptly right into hymn-like organ music was odd but fitting, i suppose.



</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ohtangle d>ohtangled</A> at: 3/20/06 1:32 am

[patriquem]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>BTW, does anyone know what "Cosa Mesa" means? I assume "coast" something. Mountains?<hr></blockquote>Costa Mesa, CA, my home for many years, is near Orange County Airport. Its main geographic feature is a mesa that has a view of the ocean, overlooking Newport Beach. Not likely to have wildfires there, as it's pretty well developed. But there are a few hotels there that cater to business travellers and conventioneers. No Omni hotel there, either.

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>But 'blackened' food doesn't mean it's burned. It's a matter of seasoning and spices that results in 'blackening'.<hr></blockquote>

I have to disagree on that one. It's cooked at a very high temperature until the surface coatings are burned. That's what imparts the black color.

</p>

[John Sacrimoni]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>BTW, does anyone know what "Cosa Mesa" means?<hr></blockquote>

I think it was 'Costa Mesa.' 'Costa' does mean 'coast' - 'mesa' means 'table.'

I think that the light represents life - whenever Dream Tony gets hit with a light full-on, it's the lights at the hospital making their way into his dreams. The beacon light is way into the distant, fading in and out - he knows it's there, he keeps looking at it, but he just can't find his way to it.


</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Thanks, John Sac. I dropped the "t" in my hurried typing.:-)

</p>

[John Sacrimoni]

'Cosa Mesa' sounds much nicer, though - and we could all go through the different ways of interpreting the mention of a thing on a table.

"He's not a person anymore! They mean 'corpse'! He's going to die!"

</p>

[tangled]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I have to disagree on that one. It's cooked at a very high temperature until the surface coatings are burned. That's what imparts the black color. <hr></blockquote>

Okee, but i eat my filets blackened and rare. *shrug*


</p>

[Pork Store]

Johnny Sac said

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I think it was 'Costa Mesa.' 'Costa' does mean 'coast' - 'mesa' means 'table.' <hr></blockquote>

To add to this.
www.costamesa-ca.com/home/history.html (http://www.costamesa-ca.com/home/history.html)




The city was renamed in the 1920's. It means "coastal tableland." One interesting fact I've found looking around the net is that a good deal of miltary personal have retired there. Seems to fit with the theory that Tony wants out of the mob.

If you read the link. Notice that the town has had three different names and was know for cultivating oranges(Godfather anyone?) in the past. It's more then likely just me digging to deep, but i thought that was interesting.





</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=porkstor e>Pork Store</A> at: 3/20/06 2:51 am

[JoeBananas]

Blackened doesnt imply cooked well, medium, rare or what not. It just indicates that it is seared on the outside. It can be whatever temperature on the inside, but it is most definitely seared/burned on the outside.

</p>

[Garth]

Ok, granted I have only seen the episode once. But, many of my thoughts about the mistaken identity have already been posted. What has not been posted (as far as I have seen) is the ending with Tony in the hotel room. Essentially, Tony (in his coma-dream) is a Tony without the mob, living a different life. Many would say that this is what Tony, despite his monetary gains from the mob-life, really desires. A life without crime (I am reminded of Coma-Tony stating "It's fraud!" in a purely innocent voice). But I digress, in the last few minutes of the episode, Tony considers "calling home" once more before going to sleep, this is his connection with his "real life". Ok, this has also been covered before, but is required to establish my analysis. Furthermore, some have conjectured the light on the horizon is his death or also his way back home. Either way, it is relatively unimportant for my points. After considering his call back home, Coma-Tony places the phone back down.

To me this ultimately showed how unhappy Tony is with his mob life. He is considering not calling them, and thereby breaking his ties to the phone. Furthermore, Coma-Tony is a completely different person. A person who is having an utterly BAD day. Losing his ID, being slapped by a monk, being turned down by a co-worker, unable to get home, unable to go to work, on a trip he never wanted to go on, falling down the stairs, finding out he has alzheimers, going through hell to get a hotel room, and all alone in strange city. However, even on such a bad day, he would rather stay in that life then make a connection to his real life back (with Carm and Silvio and the rest, but to me this is a real metaphor for organized crime). To me that is VERY powerful, he is MORE happy in this life on the worst day of his life, then he is in his life of crime with the millions of dollars he has made. This might not be the deepest observation, and maybe I am stating what the rest of you all know, I had not see it mentioned previously. So shoot some observations back!

</p>

[The Original G Man]

In the scene where the helicopters flew overhead and shined their searchlights on Tony and his potential paramour, she remarked to him that "they were looking for perps." We've often heard accounts of folks near death seeing a blinding light ("go toward the light" etc), with the supposition that it is God / heaven.

What if the light from the helicopter is Satan (who is looking for "perps" for, well, obvious reasons)?

Cosa Mesa seems to have the earmarks of purgatory ... on one side we've got the wildfires raging (hell?), on the other we've got a light on the horizon (heaven?).

(and in a bit of stretch, Tony's comment "I'm lost" made me think of the TV show "LOST" whose viewers are constantly theorizing that the castways are in purgatory)



</p>

[byss]

I haven't read much talk about one part of Tony's dream and I thought I would bring it up. I think it is important in the discussion of Tony's intentions regarding Witness Protection.

When Tony first realizes that he has someone elses identity he is about to regester for a conference. That conference is with some military/government types and Tony is an optics (sight? witness?) salesman who can't get in because of an identity crisis. Later you see the government people leaving and Tony has lost his opportunity to sell his optics to the government because he wasn't able to work out his identity issues in time.

This seems pretty straightforward in dealing with the Tony turning government witness theory. I am just not certain if the dream is telling Tony that the ship has sailed on witness protection or if it is working as a cautionary tale to get his psyche in order to do what needs to be done. Either way, I wanted to throw this out there for peoples thoughts.

</p>

[JoeBananas]

That's a very interesting interpretation of that sequence, Byss. Food for thought, definitely.

Also, I was intrigued by the lack of an Artie Bucco presence in Tony's dream. As we saw in "The Test Dream," Artie seems to serve as Tony's boatman or guide. Looking back I figured we'd see some form of that again in this episode.



</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=joebanan as@thechaselounge>JoeBananas</A> at: 3/20/06 9:32 am

[Filed38]

I think Tony needs to come to terms with who he is in the coma before he comes out of it. Maybe the dream sharpens his resolve to be what he is. His "un-Tonylike" sympathy for Uncle Junior got him shot. He is what he is and like Tony B normal life isn't an option in reality. The life protrayed in the coma of a normal life is not what he thinks it is idealistically. Being a nobody is no fun, maybe something "mobesque" will happen in the dream and trigger his recovery....He has already commited his first crime will it lead to others and will it draw him back to reality.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=filed38@ thechaselounge>Filed38</A> at: 3/20/06 10:23 am

[Giuseppe Soprano]

Just had a thought on the whole 'patio furniture' theme - the link with Tony's comment in therapy about selling patio furtinture is obviously apparenty and eveident yet we also had the episode, i think in Season4, where Tony and Carm are pulled over and written up by the black police officer for speeding and after a word in the assemblyman's ear gets him transferred from his post...and he ends up selling.......patio furniture...upon which Tony discovers on a totally fluke visit to buy some type of pipeing.

Whilst originally patrionisingly trivial and playful with the ex policeman, joking on how a nude statue/water feature would constitute indecent exposure, we saw this tone change, almost to unprecedented levels for Tony in the sense that he, personally, went to lengths to have the move undone and the policeman reinstated and then on being told that this wouldnt happen, saw him personally visit the patio store to give the guy some money (camoflauged as a delivery fee for getting an ornament to in house in one piece) of which the ex-cop refuses with an strong,resilient, implicit look and then the episode ends on this note with Tony walking away, hence imprinting this in the mind of the viewer as something indeed rather significant, perhaps in light of 'Join The Club' as someone not wanting any connection to O.C (demonstrated by refusing Tony's money gesture)....


Perhaps im just reading to much into this having some significance to 'Join The Club' in light of the 'patio furniture' theme of the show, yet i would appreciate everyones views


Giuseppe Soprano

</p>

[HagensBing1977]

I took Cosa Mesa to equal Cosa Nostra. His mob life was burning to the ground.

Another item that nobody has mentioned. It seemed like he really really wanted to see the speaker of the conference, which he ultimately missed out on. The speaker was a general of some sort, w/ an Italian name. When he was walking out, they showed him. From all of Tony's love of the History Channel, maybe somehow this speaker symbolized him or his ultimate hero in some way.

</p>

[wizdog]

Cosa mesa: my case. Not ours.

Mesa: the tables are turned. Now he gets to see his other life.

Is that what was promised as Tony's trip to the west coast?
If it is, IMO this is the biggest greatest symbol is the setting: the west coast- where the sun hides. Or falls down or... gets under the ground...

The hovering helicopters is a indubitable sign for an LA(the city of angels, even?) setting.






</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=wizdog@t hechaselounge>wizdog</A> at: 3/20/06 11:29 am

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>When Tony first realizes that he has someone elses identity he is about to regester for a conference. That conference is with some military/government types and Tony is an optics (sight? witness?) salesman who can't get in because of an identity crisis. Later you see the government people leaving and Tony has lost his opportunity to sell his optics to the government because he wasn't able to work out his identity issues in time.<hr></blockquote>

Very good thought there, byss. I too wondered what the meaning was to the convention having a military element/speaker and to the "optics" part as well. Your theory makes a lot of sense.

I'm going on memory here, but what was signified by the sign in the convention hallway? Here's how it read:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Western Div.
Mil Spec '06<hr></blockquote>

It also featured what appeared to be an icon for a space satellite.

When I first saw the sign, I was thinking "Western Division." Perhaps it stands instead for "Western Divide", since the conference was in California, Finnerty was from Arizona, and since so many relocated people in the WPP are supposedly placed in the large states west of the Rockies (the "great divide").

The satellite seems to suggest close surveillance, presumably optical surveillance since optics are what Tony was there to sell.

Both of these would further support a witness protection element to the conference.

No one has commented on the meaning of Finnerty. Any thoughts on my previous suppositions re Finnerty as God?

-- Solar heating (God as creator of the sun and author of light, "the way, the truth, and the light".)

-- Kevin Finnerty or Infinity, the alpha and omega.

-- No contact information; he's never seen, yet had to be at the bar at the exact same moment Tony was there in order to switch brief cases. Tony registers in his name at the "Omni" (God is "omnipotent", "ominpresent" but intangible, not seen).

-- The monks were looking frustradedly for him too. (Religious leaders are as lost as the rest of us, seeking the same answers.) The monks also slapped him. (Tony has always felt alienated by religion and by the religious establishment.)

-- Tony tells his wife that if he could somehow find a Bhudist temple and "get a word in edgewise", "they might lead him to Finnerty." But at this point that's just too much trouble because all he wants to do is go home. (He would like to find and believe in God but he doubts his ability to find him on his own and the credibility of religious "authority" to help him.)

Thoughts, anyone?

</p>

[wizdog]

Also, it is important to mention that by putting it briefly,
buddhism is about letting everything go, (aka leaving behind the mob-test dream!!) and by this finding nirvana...

Buddhist are also non-violent, they would never raise a hand onto anyone...


We must not also forget that dream symbolism is very important for the buddhist, their shamans vision are always being questioned.
Remeber Kundun. To see the end, which is getting near...

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=wizdog@t hechaselounge>wizdog</A> at: 3/20/06 11:48 am

[John Sacrimoni]

The Star-Ledger had a bit on the dream sequence (http://www.nj.com/columns/ledger/sepinwall/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/1142836402123280.xml&coll=1):

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>IT'S NOT a dream. It's Purgatory.

[...]

Here Tony's stuck in Orange County, quite possibly the most personality-free corner of the world, with no way to leave (a k a Purgatory). On one end of town is a shining beacon (Heaven), on the other, a raging forest fire (Hell). Over and over, he stops to assess the worth of his own life, asking, "Who am I? Where am I going?"

Then he steals the identity (sin) of Kevin Finnerty -- a heating salesman who lives in one of the hottest states of the union (Arizona) -- checks into another hotel, and falls down a red staircase, at which point he learns he has Alzheimer's (eternal damnation). And while Carmela's busy in the real world telling him he's not going to Hell, Tony's in Purgatory debating whether to tell his wife this is exactly the fate he has in store. <hr></blockquote>

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

<span style="color:blue;">Moved from another thread:</span>

phishin4me


Civilian
Posts: 6
Posted: 3/20/06 11:43 am
Is Tony in hell?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry if this has been covered in another thread already.

There has been lots of discussion of hell by religious. Some say it is fire and brimstone, being poked by little demons with pitchforks while floating in a sea of fire, you know, the "traditional" view of hell. Others say it is mearly you being someone/somewhere that you don't want to be for eternity (or infinity) So maybe Tony is in hell already? I know he is not dead, but maybe he is braindead (although I guess that would have been mentioned since they can determine this through tests)?

While I agree about the points made about him envisioning life as a "civilian" and not wanting to go back to "the life", this is just another thought I'd like to explore.

When they were splitting up, Carmella told Tony that he is going to hell (I know she said he is not in this episode but bear with me please). In his "dream world" Tony is basically a peon with no power and no respect.

When He loses his ID he trys to get a break from the girl at the table to get into the conference. Normally he would have gotten what he wanted, but not here. Same with when he went back to the hotel to re-check in. Sorry buddy, can't do it. He can't get on a plane to go home and he can't even pick up money that his wife wants to wire him. Then when he finds out that he has Alzheimers he makes a comment about not being in control or being lost (sorry I can't remember his exact quote) These all show a lack of power and control.

When he goes back to the bar and asks the bartender if he remembers him, he doesn't. Everyone knows Tony Soprano, but not in this world. Then when he finally gets checked into his hotel he gets slapped by the monk. Now this is a huge sign of disrespect that Tony Soprano would never stand for and would get someone killed. However, he had to take it and even got knocked over by the bellman in the process. Then he gets turned down by the woman that he meets in the bar. Again, this wouldn not happen to Tony Soprano. These show a lack of respect towards him.

The last thing that is greatly important to him is his family, and he can't get back to them. And when he finally does the Alzheimers will make him forget who they are eventually.

I think that the spotlights and the light off on the horizon are symbolic of heaven. Another though on "traditional" hell is that the worst part is being able to see heaven and know what you are missing out on. That is supposed to be the ultimate torture in hell.

I know there is probably more to support this but this is all I cna think of at the moment. Hopefully someone will find this interesting besides me!

</p>

[moth78]

Old poster from the sopranoland board, starting anew...

1.) Kevin Finnerty / infinity. A little heavy-handed, no? Especially with the comment from the bar guy.

2.) The voice on the phone was (to me) definitely, undeniably Charmaine.

3.) Purgatory, yes. Absolutely. My immediate thought when watching the episode.

4.) Dr. Ba - great catch with the name, whoever caught that... but not the same actor as the monk.

5.) The City to the West... Greek, Minoan and Mycenaean mythologies (among others, including Egyptian) paint the Underworld, or the entrance to it, as a `city in the west'. This has to do with their interpretation of the sun `dying' every day when it sets in the West. Literally, Tony is taking a trip to the west when he gets stuck (between life and death). Looking west, just over the horizon, he sees the light - but it's neither warm and comforting nor ominous / scary. It just is. He's close to death. Could go further, or could go back. But it's beyond his control.

6.) Anyone catch the exact name of the conference Tony/Kevin was going to?

7.) Symbolism of the colonel / authority / father figure?

Overall, I know this episode was rife with symbolism... textured, layered, well acted, shot, written, directed... and I am a very ardent Test Dream admirer... but despite all of that, was anybody else as downright BORED as I was during the first ten minutes? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/indifferent.gif ALT=":|">


</p>

[The Ghost of Tippy]

Some great observations here, many that didn't occur to me at all.

Not sure anyone mentioned it, (maybe its too obvious?), but did anyone else feel that the scene in which Tony was forced to use the fire stairwell when the elevator at the hotel was out of service was somehow symbolic of Tony's further descent into hell (or purgatory)? First, there were the fire-engine-red railings Tony was holding onto. Second, the camera seemed focused primarily on Tony's rapidly moving feet.

Could the fall he took on those stairs representat some kind of interruption on the way down? A second chance perhaps?

I my be stretching things here, but watching the emergency room scene again, where Tony's being treated for the fall he took, I felt like the ER Doctor was telling Tony that in essence, all of those black spots on the x-ray were parts of his former life. And that those were no longer viable long-term options for him; that he would have to "see his own physician when he got home", and makes some decisions about how to proceed.

Does anyone think this 'dream sequence' will be continued at all, or are we likely left to extrapolate the meaining out of what we've been given in this episode?

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

John Sac, thanks for the link. I found this the most interesting part of the article:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>When I had my annual summit with "Sopranos" creator David Chase a few weeks ago, I complimented him on having the onions to put a major dream sequence like this so early in the season, considering how many fans complain about the dreams.

"I, frankly, would not call those (episode two scenes) dreams," he said, which sent me scurrying back to watch my DVD over and over again, until (with some help from my wife) I got it.

Here Tony's stuck in Orange County, quite possibly the most personality-free corner of the world, with no way to leave (a k a Purgatory). On one end of town is a shining beacon (Heaven), on the other, a raging forest fire (Hell). Over and over, he stops to assess the worth of his own life, asking, "Who am I? Where am I going?"

Then he steals the identity (sin) of Kevin Finnerty -- a heating salesman who lives in one of the hottest states of the union (Arizona) -- checks into another hotel, and falls down a red staircase, at which point he learns he has Alzheimer's (eternal damnation). And while Carmela's busy in the real world telling him he's not going to Hell, Tony's in Purgatory debating whether to tell his wife this is exactly the fate he has in store.<hr></blockquote>

Well we have now in Chase's own words that this is not presented with the intent of it representing a simple flight of Tony's subconscious or his imagination of what purgatory may be. It is presented as an actual, alter reality, a real purgatory that Tony is experiencing.

Talk about BALLS. That has to be the most politicially incorrect thing I've ever seen on television. And it absolutely confirms that Chase has intended the incredibly strong spiritual undercurrent that I and many others have always felt from this show. Forget mafia and psychotherapy. Those are just the surface manifestations of a more fundamental tension, a war in this man's soul between good and evil, a battle for his destinty.

Back to the article. Sepinwald has Finnerty as the 180 degree opposite of God, an interpretation which also makes a lot of sense. As with the coach in Test Dream, there is a duality in Finnerty that makes him susceptible to polar opposite interpretations. Or perhaps, more accurately, he is susceptible of being both: a two sided coin of God/Satan, good/evil.

The satanic theory obviously explains the hostility of the monks as well or better than their frustration with their own search for God. However it doesn't explain why Tony would say that if he could find a Bhudist temple, the monks there might lead him to Finnerty. And Tony keeps hoping Finnerty will call (his wife TELLS him he will), as Finnerty seems to represent Tony's salvation from his current predicament.

Sepinwald's analysis of the descent down the red-handled staircase seems spot on. But unlike him, I draw significance from the fact that he stumbles on his way down and is consequently led to a hospital where -- yes -- he's given the Alzheimer's diagnosis but is also told that there are much better treatments now than previously and that he should "talk to his own docs back home" (i.e., that he should live rather than die and try to work through a "cure" or a reformation of his life). He's also told that a fall like he suffered could have broken his neck, in which case he would have already died (completing his descent) and wouldn't even have this option. But since he stole Finnerty's credit card, God has "financed" this trip to the purgatory hospital, this place where his fatal character flaws have been diagnosed and where he is given the chance to return home and sort things out.

He now knows that he can resume life but that it will be very difficult, that he will have to be a very different person. His old room, his old briefcase, his old life has already expired. He can't have it back.

He had not made his choice when the episode ended but did fail to complete the call home. The song suggested he was tired of fighting and was ready to resign himself to death and his fate in hell. So IMO his answer will come in the form of whether he lives or dies. If he lives, it will be because of the pull of his family.

On that note, I find it significant that purgatory Meadow told Tony that Carmela had to put AJ to bed early because "he puked", indicating that AJ is diseased and troubled in his "gut" like Tony. I'm curious to see if the next episode builds on Tony's sense that he must return to a troubled life for the sake of his son, that he will sacrifice what he knows will be a bitter end for his son's own good.

</p>

[ObservingEgo]

Assorted Impressions: There is grist for the mill in this dream from just about every school of dream interpretation thought: "The Royal Road to the Unconscious," "Unfinished Business," and the Jungian school of "assorted debris"... not to mention a tableau for literary device. Essentially, what I took from it has been pretty thoroughly discussed, but here goes:

The Happy Waunderer-Tony is the Middle American Joe, the happy waunderer (only not so happy...) as explored much earlier. He is decked out in blazer, khakis, rep tie, oxford shirt and carries an attache'...his kids are prototypically conventional (even with a hokey little vmail message); his vocation is normative...all of which may represent that part of Tony that yearns for yet reviles the simple life of "his" happy waunderer...Tony's alter.

The voice issue-That he was speaking to what we may infer was his wife object, yet clearly not Carmela's voice, speaks to his multiple attachments with assorted women. The fact that so many posters feel that it was Gloria's voice suggests lack of resolution and unrest concerning herand probably others.

Generalized mistaken identity...Tony's ambivalence and frustration about so much of who he is...his "real self." He struggles with access to this turmoil in his sesssions, but this crisis in identity plays out unambigously in his dream state.

Trust issues-Who can he really trust? He recently voices and seems to struggle with the ideal of loyalty vs. the reality of betrayal. We see this theme touched on by his spontaneous group of bar pals who appear at once friendly yet sinister.

Dementia/brain function losses-The moments leading up to his shooting, he was in the very presence of an Alzheimers patient, Uncle Jun. This reality comingled with what he may have been actually hearing merged into the piece with the MRI consultation IMO. Also, this may be more literary symbolism than dream interpretation.

Confluence of real life artifacts into dream sequence- Who hasn't absorbed something that is actually occuring and wrapped into the dream's "story"? The sounds and lights of the ICU fused with his dream drama...or more like dream trauma.



</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Ghost of Tippy, you and I were posting very similar things two minutes apart. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> I agree with all you said, obviously.

I think there will be a continuation of it next week. We already saw in the preview that Tony has another "almost dead" moment. So I think we haven't seen the last of Purgatory Tony.

</p>

[mickeyfarell]

Tony says "where am I? who am I ?" when he jolts out of his coma. I agree with john sac, Tony's dream suggests what his purgatory or limbo would be like. Religious figures picking fights with him and him feeling helpless about it, being "lost" without his identity (the briefcase) and away from his family.
Who was he (Finnerty) going to call at the end of the episode, his wife? Because there are things eerily similar between this dream scene and Test Dream. Tony looking out the window with the city i<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"> n the background like in Test dream. Also Tony checking in under another name is in Test Dream. Tony picks up the phone in Test Dream and calls Carmella for comfort or just to talk to someone who "knows him." Maybe he was going to call to ask her who he was again???

</p>

[mickeyfarell]

I like the recurring "bear" placement by Chase. Pretty cool to bring the bear symbol back somehow before Tony takes the fall down the stairs. Only this bear is cute and harmless, like Finnerty seems to be.

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

moth78, glad to see you came here! Been looking forward to your thoughts.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>1.) Kevin Finnerty / infinity. A little heavy-handed, no? Especially with the comment from the bar guy.<hr></blockquote>

Call me thick, but without the bar guy, I would never have caught that. More than anything, the "Finnerty" thing just suggested to me yet another aspect of Tony's identity crisis, the very Irish "Finnerty" like a disassociation from his Italian roots and Italian Mafia identity.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>2.) The voice on the phone was (to me) definitely, undeniably Charmaine.<hr></blockquote>

I am just as convinced it was no woman we know. In the Star-Ledger article, Chase (or another writer) confirms that the voice was only a generic Jersey woman's voice, just as the kids' voices were generic voices not belonging to Meadow and AJ. But many certainly heard it the way you did (and even more think it was Gloria). Reminds me of the "is it Chase's voice" debates re Test Dream.

Your number 5 on "city to the west" sounds spot on. I'm not sure about the control issue, however. I think he's being given the choice. He can't do it until he accepts his new identity, complete with brain damage and bleak, probably painful future. But if he can accept those terms, I suspect purgatory Carmela to call and tell him that Finnerty called and has arranged for him to have his identity back (or at least some other identity that will gain him access to life).

</p>

[Giuseppe Soprano]

Great insightful posts, FOMW and ObservingEgo, absolute pleasure to read and absord - agreed on the NJ.com/Sepinwall articles - thats a few very good pieces he has released now and which serve well in supplementing/fueling our discussions here

Interesting that Chase may be exprimenting with Tony ACTUALLY being in purgatory as opposed to a purgatory content dream/nightmare and particularly when thinking back to Chris' Irish hell/purgatory morphine induced dream - im still struggling with accepting this is being presented by Chase as ACTUAL purgatory however as his comments taken in Spinwalls article were still open to some ambiguity as opposed to being 100% explicit

</p>

[Giuseppe Soprano]

Also, finding it hard to contemplate Tony will become brain-damaged to a degree as a result of his coma, even for no more technical a reason that we see him enjoying the assumed Allegra Sack wedding which we know to be on the horizon from trailers - those trailer scenes dont seem to show a Tony suffering from the effects of brain disorder, even of a mild scale but i guess we will know soon enough

</p>

[moth78]

"Interesting that Chase may be exprimenting with Tony ACTUALLY being in purgatory as opposed to a purgatory content dream/nightmare "

YEAH, absolutely. I'm fascinated to see him play with that (although, I highly suspect he'll never answer either way).

Much can and should be said about the concept of heaven / hell and good / evil in the Sopranos... for me, that's the most interesting part of this (and any) series. It's the most striking and uniquely human conflict concept humanity has developed, and thus gives the basis of the best drama.

(Incidentally, that's why shows like Sopranos, Oz, the Shield, etc. are so interesting to me, while shows like Big Love I'm already a little tired of - there's no questioning that Roman is evil in that show, he just is, because he's a cult leader. Too easy!)

We sometimes see the issue explored in movies... and certainly in every day life, where events and people are frequently broken down for us by media or government... so-and-so is evil, so-and-so is good.

But few TV shows have dealt with heaven and hell in a serious way, which is odd when you think that over 80% of Americans say they believe in an afterlife. There's ones that over-literalize death and the afterlife (Touched by an Angel, Dead Like Me), and there's ones that are firmly on a naturalistic side - death is the end of ends. Few have dealt with the actual psychospiritual concept of heaven and hell, and for that matter, purgatory...

Tony is in purgatory. Whether he's dreaming it or really psychophysically `there'... he's in Purgatory. For Tony Soprano, purgatory as a place now exists.

I'm slowly changing my line of thinking about this episode... it may well be impossible for Tony to come out of this experience unchanged.

</p>

[jayneezy]

I just read the article.....it was a good read.....that guy also seems to be on point with his articles......i read nj.com all the time and have read other soprano related articles by that reporter....

The Purgatory thing makes more sense now........i watched the episode again earlier today.....and i am going to watch it again later on because i read that article....

</p>

[AlaskaJW]

I don't think this is a 'dream' sequence at all, but rather a glimpse at Tony's subconscience. He is in limbo between two undefined worlds. Sitting on the bed, staring at the beacon of 'home' or 'heaven' (which pulses like his vital signs) vs. trying to take the broken elevator 'down' or to Hell (the teddy bear holding the sign is brilliant).

Remember, the first words out of his mouth in this episode were when he called his family and said 'I'm Here.' Where's "here"? He didn't say, and we didn't find out until after we'd seen signs like the wild fires and the sign asking if sin and heaven were 'real'.

He's searching for a way to either place. Asking everyone with they know Kevin Finerty - which sounds a lot like eternity.

It appears the device to show Tony 'stuck' is simply the generic, road-weary salesman. He's not "the boss" here, in fact, even the bartender barely remembers him. He lost his life in the briefcase and he needs it to get back - but something tells me Kevin Finerty will not show up give it up easily.

The seven souls: the first to leave the body.. this is it. The first to go is the name. All the references to Tony by name or otherwise (AJ won't say Dad, only "Tony Soprano") perhaps indicate the first to leave.

The rest is just so facsinating: While Tony deals with his current state of repose, the rest of his family begin dealing with like without him.

</p>

[jayneezy]

At about 9:10 last night i was expecting him to come out of the coma by the end of the episode......because i thought it was a dream and he usually comes out by the end of episode when its a dream......obiviously things going on in the episode with Tony i knew had deeper meaning and it would take sometime and probably a few more repeated viewings of this weeks episode than normal in order for me to understand....

The purgatory thing makes alot of sense right now.....

</p>

[DarngoodCoffee]

I hate to say it, but this discussion of purgatory is really making me think of the Lodges in Twin Peaks. I'm not trying to say there is any similarity, but the last time I saw dream sequences so well done and with so much applicable symbolism was in Lynch's twin peaks.

This Tony/Kevin split is really seeming to me to be very similar to the Mike/Bob spirits in Twin Peaks. This isn't really a very insightful post, just thought I'd share the similarities with the group.

</p>

[Gribbon]

Just to tie in with the Burroughs monolougue:

"The land of the dead" = "the Western Lands" according to Burroughs/egyptians

And here Tony is half dead and has a dream that he is on the west coast.

I would also like to restate that "western lands" could mean physically running west, into the witness protection program. There was tons of hints in this dream that Tony is contemplating that on some level.

But I'll have to admit, all those religious interpretations you have come up with makes a lot of sense. Didn't see that myself at all...

</p>

[Gribbon]

Also:

In line with the "running from the mob/witness protection prgram" line, the Alzheimer's could mean that he wants to forget or leave his mob life behind.


</p>

[Giuseppe Soprano]

One of the more 'TECHNICAL' reasons why, as much as i love the idea of Tony's Purgatory, that i have trouble fully embracing it, is that, in Catholicism, to experience Purgatory, or heaven/hell for that matter, as simple as it sounds, you have to have died.

You could argue that in Christopher's 'Purgatory experience' he was 'clinically dead' for 1 minute so with that point in mind it could be appreciated.

As far as we know, Tony didnt clinically die for any period of time during his time in the hospital, infact in thinking about it, did Carmela apparently say something to one of the doctors like "Does he know he is dieing?"

I suppose that lapsing very close to a stage of death, within Catholism/believe of after-life, could result in going to/being on the fringe of any of these 3 places.

This is in part backed up in light of the specific scenes of the beacon (a manifestation of the doctors eye torch) and the lights of Tonys medical support monitors being represented which would, suggest him being "SO" close to death that in a spiritual sense he has already entered Purgatory yet the lapsing demonstrated by the beacon etc suggest he is still responsive to a corporal life and so may yet pull through

(which indeed the season trailer further suggests by featuring Tony in future scenes/episodes)

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=giuseppe soprano>GiuseppeSoprano</A> at: 3/20/06 4:35 pm

[peeayebee]

Although I'm sure the light Tony sees in the distance represents Heaven, my first thought was of The Great Gatsby, where Gatsby gazes at the far-off light where his beloved Daisy lives. I guess it symbolizes many things, including what he wants but cannot have. If that fits in here or not, I don't know.

I also noticed at the convention sign-in desk on the wall is "QED," which stands for a Latin phrase meaning "the result required for the proof to be complete has been obtained." I can't quite work that in.

The phrase that Tony sees on a big TV screen -- "Are sin, disease and death real?" -- comes from Christian Science, which believes that the material life and all it contains is not real. Spirit and things spiritual are the only reality. What with that and the Buddists, I expected to see more religious references in the dream.

</p>

[The Gray Eagle]

It's interesting that Tony is in California, unable to get back to his life because of someone named Finnerty, who has taken something important of Tony's.

Meanwhile in the "real" world, Finn is in California, and is about to marry Tony's daughter.

I wonder if this is possible foreshadowing, maybe of Finn one day squealing to the feds and taking away Tony's "real" life.

If it is foreshadowing, it wouldn't take away from all the other symbolism and meaning going on here, just add another level to it.


-----
"Congratulations to everyone connected to the Boston Red Sox. A great day in Boston. A great day in baseball. A great day in sports and a great day in American history."

10/27/04
</p>

[bacala]

I just re-watched with the thought that Tony is in purgatory at the hotel. When he first leaves the hotel, the helicopter's blinding light (doorway to death - but heaven or hell?). Then, something about Tony/Kev going to the conference. He wanted to get in but the registrar lady (St. Peter) won't let him into the gates until he can prove who he is. Tony comes back to purgatory and then gets woo-ed by some "let's have a ball" type (wiseguys they weren't, but the same idea is still there) friends who threaten to "pummell" Kevin Finnerty if he shows his face (while laughing) and then pick up the check for him (Low-totem pole guy ala Christopher).

Last, is the girl at dinner some sort of Lucifer symbol or at least a goumar? She was wearing a red blouse and makes out with Tony/Kev in the same scene of helicopter and blinding light. She knows exactly what the light means and how they are looking for "perps". Also, she did say to Tony "This isn't going to happen" and that she knew it when she "saw the look on your face after talking with your wife"...what is "this"? Tony's choice of heaven and hell? Will Tony not go to hell because of Carmela, his savior?

Any more thoughts on the symbolism of heaven and hell surrounding purgatory?...I'm not catholic so I may be far off but still...

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=bacala>bacala</A> at: 3/20/06 5:38 pm

[Detective Hunt]

I think the Purgatory allusion is there while in fact, it is Tony dreaming while in a coma. Granted, there is a more linear quality that his usual dreams. But this is a special circumstance, in which his subconscience has taken over. These things he sees are all thoughts from his head - the doctor/Bhuddists or the light from the helicopter/the Doctor's light flashing in his eyes.

As stated, to be in Purgatory as it is thought of, one must die. But that does not mean that Tony's mind isn't playing with that thought. His subconscience may be trying to find a way out, and Purgatory provides a perfect place to linger while on such a search for the truth. How long it will last is anyone's guess. But he's certainly not dead yet.

I am reminded of an episode of St. Elsewhere from many years ago. Howie Mandel's character visits his old friend, now dead, that resides in Purgatory. It was represented as a boat out at sea and the two of them sat there and talked while Mandel's character recovered from a near fatal wound in the hospital (if I recall - it's been a long time since I saw it.) Plenty of reason to think the same could be happening here.

</p>

[Chadchadwik]

What did anyone make of the message on the tv screen in the bar?

"Are sin, disease and death real?"

</p>

[Hrurusch]

that might be a clear question he asks himself, if he just should stop the coma and drop sin and disease...and flip.

</p>

[jayneezy]

when i saw that thing about sin on the screen.....i got a feeling this might be a deeper meaning that is going to have some sort of effect on him or he is not going to come out of the coma and just brush this one off...meaning if its a dream or purgatory, whatever it is this will really make him think..in other words this is a changing point......i didnt figure out the purgatory thing until i read that article today....

</p>

[phillyesq]

I've read this board for a while, first time poster.

While rewatching the episode, a few things really struck me. I apologize if any of this is repetitive.

1) The music in the bar - it seems very eerie - organ type music - the type of music that is typically associated with heaven/the afterlife.

2) When Tony is attempting to check into the conference, the woman who denies his entry tells him "it's a whole new world." At first, I just took this as face value - it's a new world, post 9-11, etc. Going deeper, after seeing the whole episode, it's a whole new world - you're no longer Tony Soprano, mob boss, but now, Tony Soprano, average guy... you have to play by the same rules as everybody else...

3) The bald guy at the bar that invited made the Lexus comment and later invited Tony to the table - did anybody else think that he looked like a Fed? At first, I thought that he was an FBI agent. Upon a second watching, I still think he had an FBI agent sort of look. Could him inviting Tony to dinner symbolize the FBI inviting Tony to join them, and Tony accepting?

4) At dinner, Tony remarking "Who am I, where am I going?" First, just seemed like a general lamentation about the state of his life. After the second watching, it seemed much deeper. Like Tony is really at a crossroads. Stay with the mob, or give up the life?

5) When talking to the Doctor after the concussion, and telling him about the fake insurance card, the Doctor asks Tony his name and he responds "Who cares, pretty soon, I'm not going to remember," or something to that effect. Does this symbolize that Tony is thinking of entering the WPP, changing his name?

Just my two cents...

</p>

[billymac]

Not sure what significance, if any, the following observation has: After Tony falls down the steps and winds up in the hospital he has a band aid on his head...also visible in the final scene when he is sitting on the bed in the hotel room -- it appears to be placed in exactly the same spot as was the band-aid following his skin cancer procedure in "Irregular Around the Margins" (if I recall the episode correctly).

This could mean absolutely nothing, but I would be interested in the thoughts of others here about whether you feel there is any connection to be drawn between Tony's real life cancer episode and the manifestation of his fear of having Alzheiemers Disease as revealed to him in the dream/coma.

</p>

[TheFishes]

I'm taking something else from all of this, which is really cool, I love the fact that there are all these possible interpretations floating around.

So--back during the "Seven Souls" montage the thing that struck me was the fact that AJ seemed to be equated with the double, (At first I thought it was devil.) this has always been one of Tony's major hopes/fears for his son. I agree with others that T dosen't want AJ in the life--but still consider how much Tony lionizes his father. Livia might be where Tony got stuck, but he's always wanted to be Johnny-Boy.

The thing about 'The Double' being the only reliable guide through the land of the dead--okay, what if AJ's explcit threat to Jun is exactly the message that Tony needs. Consider the symbolism of the Altzhimerz (SP) trying to kill Ton in the Finnerty universe. In a way, mental illness has been try to get at him from the start. There's John and Junior's older brother who is never discussed AND Livia's obvious mental issiues. Mental illness on both sides of the family--not to mention the fact that Tony, like AJ, is a bit of a sociopath.

There is also the last session that Tony has with Melfi before the shooting. She calls him out for being unable, after all this time, to accept that his mother and Junior tried to have him rubbed out.

So what I'm thinking is: In order for T to get out of the purgatory state he finds himself in he is going to have to come to terms with what he really is. Going to have to accept the fact that his blood family is poisoned and give up the idea of being the 'dutiful' son/nephew--embrace the fact that his relatives (family--herridity) is not the place where his salvation is going to come from.

Wouldn't it be interesting if Tony's salvation came in the form of finishing the job with Junior that he couldn't with Livia? Finally getting shut of that by following the path of the 'double' who is leading in the direction of ending Junior's life.

</p>

[Geophrum]

untill reading all this i was under the impression that he cannot come home as becuase he is in an induced coma so he is forced tolive in this pergatory state..

Thank you for giving alot more to think about on this

</p>

[Hrurusch]

billymac, i was thinking the same yesterday about the band-aids, but they are in different spots.(i checked out that episode.)

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hrurusch>Hrurusch</A> at: 3/21/06 9:46 am

[billymac]

Thanks for the input...like I said, could be meaningless and a product of my own mania for understanding EVERYTHING about this show!

</p>

[Malenga]

First time poster, long time lurker at sopranoland boards.
Great insight here as usual.
One thing that I have seen touched on but not hammered home yet and I can't believe it, is that unequivocally (to me and my wife anyway) that the "wife" voice in the purgatory sequences is Charmaine (sp?) Bucco. No ifs, ands, or buts (funny scene with junior, no? but I digress).......

We have often heard Tony through the seasons wonder what his life would have been like if he married Charmaine. He talked about her with Tony B in the test dream, and there has been numerous other mentions going back to season 1 when Charmaine told Carmela about her summer with Tony. I believe Tony sees Charmaine as a primary reason/influence for Artie not getting into the mob life. So is it any coincidence that when Tony is pondering the straight life within purgatory/dream or whatever you want to call it, that his wife object would be Charmaine in that scenario?

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=malenga>Malenga</A> at: 3/21/06 10:17 am

[Giuseppe Soprano]

<span style="font-size:small;"><span style="text-decoration:underline">Fly On Melfi's Wall</span></span>

FOMW said:

"<span style="text-decoration:underline">Blackened Grouper. Don't know what it means, but I find it curious in view of the fact that Tony has been on a raw fish binge. Suddenly the fish is burnt. Possibly a reference again to the proximity to flames</span>

Fly, sorry to contradict you here yet I am fairly sure, Tony makes reference to a "Black <span style="text-decoration:underline">and</span> Grouper Sandwich" rather than 'Blackened Grouper Sandwich' with a "Black" being a colloquial term for Johnnie Walker 'Black Label' Whiskey.

JW Black Label product placement has been many rather prolific throughout the show since its inceptions, with the familiar bottle shape often in visible shot in bars, the bing etc.

For example, there was once a scene with the guy the guys took the Lollipop club from to give to Ade (renamed Crazy Horse) and Furio asks him if he wants a drink and he asks for a 'Johnnie Black' - its a kind of generic/colloquail name for the drink, like i guess you would ask for a 'Bud' for example.

Interestingly however, and i apologise if this has been mentioned, yet a <span style="text-decoration:underline">"Gropuer fish"</span> is infact the PUSSY fish from FUNHOUSE - very interesting that subliminal pussy reference are still being made - recognise those 'fish lips' anywhere! Why would Chase still be making such connections:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-6/1028663/fish.jpg


<span style="font-size:small;"><span style="text-decoration:underline">Billymac</span></span>

Good call on the band aid/melanoma connection - im sure this was done consciously by the production team as that would be too much of a coincidence


<span style="font-size:small;"><span style="text-decoration:underline">The significance of Hotel Omni and floors 7, 6 and 5</span></span>

It seemed that we were being shown that Tony was staying on floor #7 (on his way to the elevator AND with TEST DREAM-esque red neon Exit signs in full view) and then moving down stair flights through floor#6 and then #5 for a reason - Dante Aligierhi's hell had 9 rings and his Purgatory 7 levels - could this be the allusion Chase is making?

When thinking/talking of Purgatory, people often think of it in terms of 'moving up' eventually from there to Heaven/Paradise once a penance if paid yet if my theory of Tonys hotel floor 7 and the 7 levels of Purgatory are correct, I am a bit lost as
obviously with the stairwell going downwards and being painted red would contrarily seem to symbolise a passageway to hell (i.e: the route Tony is on) yet his abrupt fall and then quick cut to a scene of a doting Carmela, and then the doctors noting that "you were lucky, you could have broken your neck" with Tony pondering on this thought, suggested to me that Carmela (or indeed something) broke/will brake his continuing fall all the way to hell and that he somehow will now have a second chance or make a decision to turn his live around.

Plus, has anyone made the connection of the Hotel Omni name and how Omni meaning "A combining form denoting all, every, everywhere; as in omnipotent, all-powerful; omnipresent" Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) and often being used relative to GOD being here, all around us etc... this has to be intentional - as Tony/Finnerty checked into the OMNI towards the end, does this suggest some kind of him getting closer to it (although at that point he was still Finnerty and not Tony, or was he considering we didnt actually see him make that presumed final call to his wife and kids???)


<span style="font-size:small;"><span style="text-decoration:underline">
The Teddy Bear - 'Please BEAR with us'</span></span>

I, as many, have taken this bear to provide some kind of connection to the whole bear theme which bookended the 5th season however i am struggling to define its exact meaning/significance in the context it was shown in in 'Join the Club'? The original bear was black, this one is now white and in cuddly/toy form but i am puzzled as to its significance here - any ideas please anyone?


Sidenote: With all this talk of Purgatory, i am reminded of the scene in the trailer of Tony and Carm nuzzling and Tony stating "makes you wonder about Heaven and Hell" - also, my past accounts with FOMW as to what exactly Tony said in that scene and the agreement that it was indeed "Did you come?" in the sexual sense of the word - i now accept this more easily in light of Carmela's "You make me so hot down there" comment in this episode!


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=giuseppe soprano>GiuseppeSoprano</A> at: 3/21/06 12:55 pm

[billymac]

Guieseppe Soprano wrote....

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I, as many, have taken this bear to provide some kind of connection to the whole bear theme which bookended the 5th season however i am struggling to define its exact meaning/significance in the context it was shown in in 'Join the Club'? The original bear was black, this one is now white and in cuddly/toy form but i am puzzled as to its significance here - any ideas please anyone?<hr></blockquote>

On the surface I guess you can look at the difference in the "bears" in Tony's real life and in the purgatory life. In Tony's real life the bear is menacing and ferocious; in the purgatory/coma life, it is a cute little cuddly toy without menace. So, the things that menace him in the real "mob" world, might not be there to menace him in the alternate world (if he were to take that route).

Whadda Ya think?

</p>

[Malenga]

Giuseppesoprano said:
Fly, sorry to contradict you here yet I am fairly sure, Tony makes reference to a "Black and Grouper Sandwich" rather than 'Blackened Grouper Sandwich' with a "Black" being a colloquial term for Johnnie Walker 'Black Label' Whiskey.
-------------------------------------


I have to disagree, looking to musch into this here. It was a "blackened grouper" sandwich.

I do like your grouper/Pussy tie in though

</p>

[Hrurusch]

there was once another bear, a washbear.
it caused tonys car accident when he was with adriana and he was asking around what has happened to the girl she once brought to his house on a sunday.
he is looking at her when asking that, the bear appears, adriana yells and they crash.
the colour of the pink bear reminds a lot of adrianas style as well.
the accident is in season 5 (floor number) as well.

didnt really put much analysis into this, but there might be something into it.


edit:that happened the same episode he had the cancer stuff and the band aid on the forehead btw.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hrurusch>Hrurusch</A> at: 3/21/06 10:46 am

[Giuseppe Soprano]

Melanga, all due respect and im sorry but i DO disagree with you re: the black/blackened query explained above.

I have watched the dialogue over and over (and over!) and i am SURE Tony make mention to a BLACK and GROUPER SANDWICH.

If you re-watch the scene, Tony even make a slight pause after saying BLACK and there is clarity in his pronunciation here to suggest its the end of this word and that AND/'ENED would be separate and so I stand by this.

Furthermore, the bartender even then makes subsequent of a " GROUPER SAN' " in isolation.

Tony also asked for a Scotch (JW is a scotch i believe) which would suggest this is his regular tipple and would justify why (if he did) he ordered it on the prior time he was there

</p>

[TonyUncleAl]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>1) The music in the bar - it seems very eerie - organ type music - the type of music that is typically associated with heaven<hr></blockquote>

I think the name of that song was 'The Happy Organ' by Dave 'Baby' Cortez. sample here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00002CEYS001001/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_001/002-7152660-7052808)

Certainly not referring to T's spleen.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>4) At dinner, Tony remarking "Who am I, where am I going?" First, just seemed like a general lamentation about the state of his life. After the second watching, it seemed much deeper. Like Tony is really at a crossroads. Stay with the mob, or give up the life?<hr></blockquote>

Isn't this the same thing Tony said when he ripped out his breathing tube?

</p>

[Giuseppe Soprano]

Fly (FOMW)

did you have any thoughts on my above post - am intruiged as to your ideas

Giuseppe Soprano

</p>

[mkay0]

I thought it was purgatory as well. This episode is very different in presentation than the other episodes where Tony is dreaming. In Funhouse and The Test Dream, the images are much, much more surreal and have a stream of concious feeling to them. In this episode, it seemed very different. The images in his head are more grounded in more of a certian type of reality.

Seems like he is there on a mission to get his briefcase (life) back. Will he wake up when he finds the other guy?

I also read that the fire on one side of town and light on the other may suggest heaven and hell.

</p>

[Detective Hunt]

GiuseppeSoprano - would you mind terribly resizing that pic in your post? I'm having to do much scrolling (left to right) just to read everything you and others wrote. Thanks ahead of time.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

<span style="color:blue;">Moved from another thread:</span>


JackieJr

Civilian
Posts: 8
Posted: 3/21/06 8:49 am
Elevator/Stairwell Scene
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there is more to be analyzed about the scene where Tony falls down the stairs. I have read some posts about the bear and the Buddhist pair. I noticed two things I haven't seen anyone mention yet. 1) When Tony falls, the number 5 (floor 5) is prominently displayed. In the monologue at the beginning of episode 6.1, the 5th soul is Ka (the double -- AJ). 2) The whole series has been about Tony's duality and now he has the double identity of Kevin Finnerty. When Carm asks the Asian doctor (who resmbles the Buddhist pair) "Does he know he is dying?", it is unclear who she is referring to. The doctor answers "We don't know". Maybe the doctor is referring to the Buddhists. I think we will definitely be seeing more of the Buddhists in Costa Mesa.

I also think there is more regarding the hotel name "Omni".

From answers.com:

Omni (Book of Mormon)
In the Book of Mormon, Omni appears in the Book of Omni. Omni describes himself as a wicked man, but apparently he fought a great deal against the Lamanites in order to protect his people. He turned the plates under his stewardship over to his son, Amaron.

</p>

[Giuseppe Soprano]

Hey DetectiveHunt,

Pussy/Grouper Fish image resized as requested - apologies for any inconvenience

Any thoughts on any of the points i made in that post BTW, would be very intrested to hear your take, Fly also...

Thanks

Giuseppe Soprano

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Fly, sorry to contradict you here yet I am fairly sure, Tony makes reference to a "Black and Grouper Sandwich" rather than 'Blackened Grouper Sandwich' with a "Black" being a colloquial term for Johnnie Walker 'Black Label' Whiskey.<hr></blockquote>

Well, GS, this is one of those "ear of the beholder" things.:-) I listened to it again 3 times just because you seem so certain. However I'm just as certain that he says "blackened grouper sandwich" (later shortened to just "grouper san"). I also think that makes more sense in the context.

The first thing Tony focusses on in the bar is the TV screen, which is showing wildfires burning in Costa Mesa (his location). With all of his meals in the first ep conspicuously involving raw fish, I think it's cleverly appropriate that in a limbo state, while he's near and on his way to hell, he orders fish that is essentially burned on the surface.

I Tivod the ep and would presume closed captioning is available, but I can't find a menu choice or remote button that engages it. If I do, I'll be sure to check that dialog and report back.

BTW, Yellow Fin Grouper is my favorite fish and is among the many seafood delicacies harvested from the Gulf of Mexico, near my home. If you ever get the chance to eat fresh Yellow Fin, take it.:-)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Plus, has anyone made the connection of the Hotel Omni name and how Omni meaning "A combining form denoting all, every, everywhere;<hr></blockquote>

I posted way up thread some thoughts on this. The Omni ties in with Finnerty because it was Finnerty's name and credit card that enabled Tony to have emergency lodging there (i.e., a brief reprieve on death). I'll repost here to save you searching (and to hopefully stimulate some discussion, since the Sepinwald article takes the polar opposite view of Finnerty):

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>No one has commented on the meaning of Finnerty. Any thoughts on my previous suppositions re Finnerty as God?

-- Solar heating (God as creator of the sun and author of light, "the way, the truth, and the light".)

-- Kevin Finnerty or Infinity, the alpha and omega.

-- No contact information; he's never seen, yet had to be at the bar at the exact same moment Tony was there in order to switch brief cases. Tony registers in his name at the "Omni" (God is "omnipotent", "ominpresent" but intangible, not seen).

-- The monks were looking frustradedly for him too. (Religious leaders are as lost as the rest of us, seeking the same answers.) The monks also slapped him. (Tony has always felt alienated by religion and by the religious establishment.)

-- Tony tells his wife that if he could somehow find a Bhudist temple and "get a word in edgewise", "they might lead him to Finnerty." But at this point that's just too much trouble because all he wants to do is go home. (He would like to find and believe in God but he doubts his ability to find him on his own and the credibility of religious "authority" to help him.)<hr></blockquote>

I think I also mentioned elsewhere that Finnerty seems to be Tony's salvation in this world. He can't go anywhere or do anything unless and until Finnerty "calls" or otherwise arranges for him to get his identifying credentials back. He keeps asking people (his coma wife, the bartender & bar patron, the monks) if they "know" Finnerty or if Finnerty has called. Nobody knows him or has seen him (as you might expect from people so close to hell!), although coma wife assures Tony that he will make contact, a nod to Carmela's faith.

The monks are suing mad (LMAO!) because Finnerty "ignored their letters and phone calls" and they found his solar heating defective. Sounds a lot like disillusioned religious vocationalists who have a beef with a God that they feel ignored their prayers.

I can't remember now if I mentioned it before, but there's significance in the fact that Finnerty's insurance card was used to finance Tony's trip to the ER, where the very dedicated and compassionate doctor (in contrast to the real life doctors) went to great lengths to diagnose his condition and encourage him to seek treatment "back home". In "paying the price" for Tony to gain this insight and providing him with every opportunity to avoid a fate in hell, I see allusion to the sacrifice of Christ in "paying for the redemption" of mankind.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>It seemed that we were being shown that Tony was staying on floor #7 (on his way to the elevator) and then moving down stair flights through floor#6 and then #5 for a reason - Dante Aligierhi's hell had 9 rings and his Purgatory 7 levels - could this be the allusion Chase is making?<hr></blockquote>

Great catch! I wondered at the room "728" thing but had no ideas. (I'm so illiterate I'd never get these kinds of metaphors without having them spoon-fed by the readers among us. Thanks for the bite.:-))

GS, on the bear thing, I think billymac nailed it perfectly:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>In Tony's real life the bear is menacing and ferocious; in the purgatory/coma life, it is a cute little cuddly toy without menace.<hr></blockquote>

Coma Tony is simply a different person with a much different temprament, value system, and set of ethical sensibilities. And even when provoked, he's harmless -- falling backwards over a luggage rack and yelling for help after being assaulted by biggity monks (LMAO).



</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flyonmel fiswall>FlyOnMelfisWall</A> at: 3/21/06 12:58 pm

[Into It]

I definitely think the events of this coma will forever change the outcome of the series and directly influence the ending of the series, though we won't see this until we get nearer to the end.

The dream in this episode was so rich and deep with symbolism that it's almost hard to keep up. I won't get into the purgatory/dream aspect of it, as many users before me touched on many of the key issues already. However, the one thing that I will mention is that Tony is definitely having some subconscious doubts about his choice of work, and I believe that a lot of things that Chase showed us in the coma sequences, as well as what was going on within both families outside of it, reflect that. I believe the conversation with Eugene from the first episode has a direct correlation with this one.

If I had to guess where this is going, then I would say that it is obvious that AJ is going to try and enter the family business, though as many here have already observed, he doesn't have the chops for it. I also think there will be a romantic connection between Meadow and Christopher (I don't think the close-up on their hand holding was to merely show Christopher comforting the family). I also think that due to this experience, we might see some added pressure from Carmela on Tony, much like Eugene's wife (Although I don't think this will come until later, as Carmela must deal with her own demons as to wether or not the lifestyle she herself has also grown accustomed to is worth it). I definitely see Christopher either being whacked or leaving the business in some way. All of this, along with the imminent war with the NY family, will force Tony to make a decision whether or not his blood family is more important than his mob family. If he leaves, I don't think it will be under FBI custody, because as some have already mentioned, HE is the target of the FBI. He will leave the country, taking his family with him. Our last shot? His past catching up to him. Nobody leaves the life.

Just my two cents.

BTW, blackening is definitely due to the spices used, not any type of cooking method. The burnt taste you may be experiencing is that of the spice itself being either grilled or sauteed too long. This from a guy who has owned his own restaurant for 9 years, in case you were wondering.

</p>

[Giuseppe Soprano]

OK Fly, this is where I come across as a total jackass and actually go back on my original idea I spent so long trying to justify and agree with you! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">

After a few repeat viewings of that scene, blackened would make sense, not only in light of the contrast to the MEMBERS ONLY sushi, yet the bartender specifically said something along the lines of:

"...now i remember, i was nervous because someone else ordered the Grouper San and i didnt want to confuse the orders..."

If they were both 'regular' Grouper Sandwich orders, why would he be nervous? It makes sense that the bartender wouldnt want to confuse Tony's 'blackened/well done' sandwich with the other patrons 'regular' sandwich.

(sorry for being too hasty then on this whole Johnnie Black theory-oops!)

Regarding the Pussy/Funhouse/Grouper fish connection, do you read anything into this or indeed into any signficance of specific Pussy related symbolism Chase may be trying to conjure?


Fly, your detailed insight into the Monks is inspired and thank you for your comments re: my 7,6,8/Dante Aligiheri Purgatory level note - what do you make of the abrupt arrest to his fall and how the instant cut to Caremela coupled with the compassionate doctors mention that "you were lucky not to break you neck" perhaps having a point in Carmela being actively involved in Tony's salvation?


On repeat viewings, im also at pains to fully understand the whole "join the club" table talk...... "you all had a hand in this"

What is "the brass ring" the lady alludes to which Tonys sales team snatched for 12 consequtive quarters? Some kind of industry award/accolade?.....and the ladies rather stern look on Tony stating "its not such a big deal, theres always a faster gun"

also the "I could have been a whole different person tonight, but i blew it" line...


....is the female colleague at the table dressed specifically in red to conjure an image of hell/devil/temptation....a devil would want someone to commit sin and not stop them in their tracks as she did by halting their kiss on the grounds of his family or was this Tony projecting through her i wonder?



Will definately pick up some Yellow Fin Grouper from my fish monger now based on your recommendation - do you have any recommendations as to how to cook/serve it Fly?


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=giuseppe soprano>GiuseppeSoprano</A> at: 3/21/06 3:11 pm

[Giuseppe Soprano]

Into It said:

"BTW, blackening is definitely due to the spices used, not any type of cooking method. The burnt taste you may be experiencing is that of the spice itself being either grilled or sauteed too long. This from a guy who has owned his own restaurant for 9 years, in case you were wondering."
------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry Into It, yet I have to disagree - food which has not been spiced can still burn and so thus burning/blackening is not dependant on their addition to any cooking process.

You could leave a Grouper Fish on a BBQ or frying pan for example for a long time, without any spices, and it wouldnt be a suprise for it to become burnt

</p>

[Malenga]

just to put an end to the blackened argument:

it is the spices but just as importanly the cooking method (Cast iron skillet pre-heated to almost white hot).
You cannot truly "blacken" something on a grill or in an oven if you are going to go by the original, purest, new orleans point of view.

click here (http://www.epicurious.com/cooking/how_to/food_dictionary/entry?id=1400)

quote:
blackened
A cooking technique made famous by New Orleans's chef Paul Prudhomme by which meat or fish is cooked in a cast-iron skillet that's been heated until almost red hot. Prudhomme's original specialty was blackened redfish. The food is customarily rubbed with a CAJUN spice mixture before being cooked. The extra hot skillet combined with the seasoning rub gives food an extra crispy crust.

© Copyright Barron's Educational


so if you had 9 years of restaurant running, I am glad I didnt order anything blackened from you

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=malenga>Malenga</A> at: 3/21/06 2:14 pm

[Into It]

No need to apologize Soprano, however, I do think you missed my point. I agree with what you said above, I was merely giving a possible reason as to why one might think that something that is "blackened" is burnt or seared, which it doesn't have to be. The blackening process has to do with the seasoning, not the method of preparation.

Anyways, not important. On to the Soprano discussion! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">

</p>

[Giuseppe Soprano]

Thank you for your point 'Into It' and for your definition 'Melanga' - you beat me to it yet i was ablut to post just after my last post that indeed blackening in some cases doesnt have to also be burnt as in the case of for example, a sealed carpaccio of beef which if often rubbed in spices, blackened on the very outside edge, yet rare throughout and served in very thin slices.

I dont think anyone is wrong here, it just depends on the food and cooking process in hand although i now appreciate 'blackening' as a specific cooking method as per your definition so thank you for the clarification.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=giuseppe soprano>GiuseppeSoprano</A> at: 3/21/06 2:23 pm

[moth78]

Beginning to delve into the very rich and complicated Inferno symbolism here...

Circle V (fifth floor) is the angry and the sullen. The angry thrashing about helplessly.

"Tell me about the Soprano temper"

Circle VII (room 728?) is the Violent.
Interestly, round 2 of Circle VII is the Wood of the Suicides, where we meet suicidal people encased in wood and trees.

Forest Fires. Recent death of Eugene Pontecorvo.

This probably has little to do with anything, but it's impossible to have a scene with purgatory / hell allusions and not at least check out Inferno.








</p>

[Iron Lung 1]

There's no Yellow-Fin Grouper. It's yelow-fin tuna. BTW, Blackened Grouper is good. Broiled and grilled is good too.

"Tell Felix Trinidad and his father to stop pussyfooting with the dick. If they want to get fvcked all they need to do is knock on the door and they'll get their shot. Trinidad didn't just get beat he got knocked out…and I know his father doesn't like to hear these words, but if his son wants to become a champion at middleweight he needs to see me…I came at him the same way he came at Oscar by telling them to switch the names and we have a fight, and I kicked that ass without controversy. He wanted Oscar De La Hoya to do something he wasn't willing to do with me, so that should show you how stupid and scared they are…I love sticking it to them, because all that you need to ask him is, Did Bernard Hopkins kick your son’s ass? Shit, his son probably kicked his ass when they got home for putting him in there with that kind of animal. What Trinidad Sr. did to his son is considered child abuse in some states. Trinidad's father should have been institutionalized for putting his son in there with me. Every time he brings my name up he needs to look at that tape to know what kind of man and what kind of athlete Bernard Hopkins is. The only thing I haven't figured out yet is who regrets it more, Trinidad, Trinidad Sr. or Don King?"
</p>

[Detective Hunt]

Actually, moth78 - shouldn't we focus more on Purgatorio given where Tony's alt-self is currently? I do think there may be some Dante references that would be helpful, but I admit that I have yet had the time to look at it.

As for the fish symbolism and Big Pussy, I wonder if that might have something to do with his intended route to "go home" towards the beacon. Can't offer up anything more other than to say it is surely more than just coincidence. And I am pleased we may have solved the black and grouper vs. blackened grouper thing - I could have listened all day and probably heard it both ways a million times.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>When thinking/talking of Purgatory, people often think of it in terms of 'moving up' eventually from there to Heaven/Paradise once a penance if paid yet if my theory of Tonys hotel floor 7 and the 7 levels of Purgatory are correct, I am a bit lost as
obviously with the stairwell going downwards and being painted red would contrarily seem to symbolise a passageway to hell (i.e: the route Tony is on) yet his abrupt fall and then quick cut to a scene of a doting Carmela, and then the doctors noting that "you were lucky, you could have broken your neck" with Tony pondering on this thought, suggested to me that Carmela (or indeed something) broke/will brake his continuing fall all the way to hell and that he somehow will now have a second chance or make a decision to turn his live around.<hr></blockquote>
This is very interesting. I had not thought much on what it meant to have him falling there, but I think you are on to something. I have been thinking that Tony's choice is one between good and evil, and thus heaven and hell. If anything, this bit symbolizes that he is directly on the path to hell unless he makes the change - thus the conversation with the Dr. and his words. That backs up the statement. If Carmela is involved, I do not know, but the cut you mention certainly adds to that thought.

Tony is not just in a state of limbo medically, he is in a state of limbo spiritually. I suppose what he is doing currently is trying to determine in his subconscience which way to go. Perhaps he realizes that if he chooses to live now, he may still very well wind up dead - either by New York, one of his own or the risk inherent in going witness protection. And maybe that is why he hesitates to "call home" at the end, punched by the lyrics to the closing credits song.

Very interesting thoughts by all involved above.

Also, I should reiterate that Tony is dreaming, but coma dreams are not like regular ones. I have a friend who was in a coma for a week. He tells me that he did dream and it was far more linear than he normally would. Further, he is one of those people who knows they are dreaming, but he did not have that while in the coma. He explains it like, "I was just going on with my life as usual, but with some majorly weird things added" - like a monkey that spoke French and smoked.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat"> He is dead serious on that. I think Tony is very much in the same boat.

Oh, and thanks for resizing the picture, GS. It helps very much.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=detectiv ehunt>Detective Hunt</A> at: 3/21/06 3:27 pm

[billymac]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>but with some majorly weird things added" - like a monkey that spoke French and smoked<hr></blockquote>

WOW!

</p>

[Giuseppe Soprano]

You shouldnt be too surprised BillyMac........weve already had a talking fish in "FUNHOUSE" ! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

Nice post BTW DetectiveHunt - thanks for sharing


Giuseppe Soprano

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Yellowfin Grouper (http://www.csulb.edu/depts/biology/marine/species/Yellowfin_Grouper.html_f/Yellowfin_Grouper.html)

Iron Lung, I'm no fish expert, but I know you'll get a lot farther at Joe Patti's Seafood in Pensacola if you ask for Yellowfin Grouper rather than Yellowfin Tuna.:-)

GS, my taste preference is for battered & fried, but broiled is excellent too, especially if you're counting calories or fats.

And now back to regularly scheduled programming . . .

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>what do you make of the abrupt arrest to his fall and how the instant cut to Caremela . . . having a point in Carmela being actively involved in Tony's salvation?<hr></blockquote>

This topic probably deserves it's own thread. But since you brought it up, several things hit me about Carm's role in this.

First, coma Carm assures Tony that Finnerty will make contact, advises Tony to "find a Buddhist temple", and proposes wiring him money herself. She also advises that he could explain his identity fraud to the authorities and have it excused (absolution?). She is, in short, taking a very proactive posture in helping him find a way out of Costa Mesa limbo/purgatory and is leading with an example of faith.

Particularly interesting to me was that the briefcase he lost was a Christmas gift from her. I know this should mean something, although I'm not sure what.

Through her material appetites and "look the other way" tacit approval of his crimes, did she gift him with the identity of the real (non coma) Tony Soprano? Keep in mind that Tony views her as a driving force in his lifestyle (driving Johnny Boy's car in Calling All Cars and leading the mob in Test Dream).

Or does it mean that through something she has yet to do, she will provide him with the identity of the coma Tony Soprano, the one Tony believes he is? That seems a much more appropriate gift to mark with the name "Christ".

I'm reminded of the powerful scenes in College where Carmela broke down and in a rare moment of total self honesty admitted her own culpability in profiting from and subtly encouraging Tony's criminality. But she also just as candidly admitted she loved Tony and still felt that he could be "a good man". Father Phil told her that if she helped him become a better man, she will have "done good in God's eyes".

He also counseled in that episode the notion of "change through love". If Join the Club cemented anything it's that Carmela has a deep love for Tony that transcends the money and material things he provides for her. If, through that love and other means, she helps him become a better man, she will have fulfilled Father Phil's directive and will have gifted Tony with the kind of "briefcase" he lost in Costa Mesa.

Also relevant to all this is the fact that Carmela did not pray for Tony (out loud anyway) the way she prayed for Christopher when he was in a similar situation. Recall that she prayed for Christopher to be granted “sight” about the direction of and defects in his life and that he would find a way out. She later learned, of course, that he saw himself in Hell and was told he’d be coming back permanently. The residue of that experience undoubtedly influenced her to NOT offer a similar prayer on Tony’s behalf and to instead offer her own pitiful reasoning as to why he would not be going to Hell.


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[Giuseppe Soprano]

FlyOnMelfi'sWall said:

GS, my taste preference (for Grouper Fish) is for battered & fried, but broiled is excellent too, especially if you're counting calories or fats.
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Fly,

Thank you for your recipe recommendations for my first taste of Grouper fish, yet could I honestly, in light of the last few pages of this thread, have it anything but 'blackened and sandwiched?' !

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Giuseppe Soprano <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=giuseppe soprano>GiuseppeSoprano</A> at: 3/21/06 4:50 pm

[jayduck]

There was a lot of symbolism in there, but honestly, I think "the answer" is a bit more straightforeward.

Tony is in a purgatory state.

He was on his way to Hell until Carmella told him otherwise.

Carmella forgave his sins so to speak, which she is "allowed" to do with the religious overtones of her character.

Tony can change, but I don't think this coma-dream is a sign of his change in that way. I don't think it's going to be neccessary for Tony to change, in any way, to come out of it.

In fact, he can't really change while in the coma anyway. Anything he does there has no bearing on the "real world" and therefore can, in no way, make up for any of his sins or personal failings.

Tony will be back. And he'll still still be battling his personal demons. I don't believe this is Tony "going straight".

Chase throws out lots of imagary and symbolism a lot, but usually, everybody overanalyzes it. I think, while there was heavy symbolism in the episode, it is going to turn out to have a fairly straightforeward meaning.




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[capobrendan]

At the end, when Tony picks up the phone, starts to dial, but hangs up; I look something from this. I remember Tony kept on saying a few times that he wanted to go home, and his wife wanted him too. I think this signifies his want to go to his family, and his families want of him home. But like he said, he has no real way home. No ID (other than Kevin's), money, etc...he's, in a way, stuck at the hotel.

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[jayduck]

By the way, on the note of taking the overanalyzation way too far...

Everybody uses the acronym "O.C." for Organized Crime, which I can't help but chuckle at because Coma Tony went from O.C. (Organized Crime) to The "O.C." (Costa Mesa is in Orange County).

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