Similarities between "Members Only" and "Made in America";"Members Only" as an "oracl

[dsweeney]

I referred to some similarities between the two episodes mentioned above and a few posters agreed with me.In 6a.1 we see instances of foreshadowing of events,hints to the fate of certain characters,almost like a portal to future events.The most obvious are things like Bobby with his trains,eerily like his ultimate death-scene.We see Eugene celebrating his good fortune only to kill himself later in the episode. Ray,referred to as "treachery",at the point of betraying Tony has a heart attack and dies.Similarities between the two episodes include hits by Blondie on both soundtracks,a man in a Members Only jacket walking into a diner/restaurant and Carmela asking where they will have dinner that evening.These,to my knowledge,are the only times in the entire show where this happens.Tony and AJ repeat dialogue almost word for word.Tony cries "why can't I catch a break" only for Ray to die just in time and AJ complaining his meds aren't working says the same thing.He then survives his SUV exploding.
For me,the most compelling argument for 6a.1 as an oracle of sorts is the scene with Tony eating alone.It lasts for less than twenty seconds or so.He has a bout of indigestion and puts his hand to his stomach,patting himself lightly.This corresponds precisely to where he is shot by Junior later in the episode.There is no other reason for this scene,at least none that I can see.Yes,he mentions it later to Carm and she's a bit put out that he went to their special place alone,but I think this is just to give the scene at least some sort of, dramatic value, if you like.The REAL function of the scene is to portend the shooting of Tony in the stomach later on.
If,and I say if,we can reach agreement that "Members Only" is indeed some kind of oracle to the future,then things look ominous for certain characters.Could I refer briefly to the "Seven souls" monologue at the beginning of the episode.I don't have the exact narrative in front of me so if I'm a little out,bear with me,the general idea still holds I think.With Soul number one we see Bobby with his beloved trains and like I already said we know what happens to him ultimately.Number two appears to identified with Eugene,celebrating his windfall,only for it all to wrong for him resulting in his suicide.Number three is Meadow,the Guardian Angel,so she gets a pass.Number four,"treachery" is Ray Curto.He keels over in the middle of talking to the Feds.Jumping out of sequence for a second, number six is Adriana who we already know is dead,hence "memory" and refers to "past lives". This leaves us with only two.Number five is AJ,the devil.The narrative goes something like "...dies just past adolescence and is the most reliable guide in the afterlife",something to that effect anyway.That leaves us with number seven.Tony.Identified as "remains".The first sight we have of Tony in THIS episode? He's digging a hole in the ground!!(I won't even touch that one bada,see? I'm learning).This shot is very similar actually to Tony in the garden sweeping leaves in "Made in America",just before he visits Junior I think.
This is just an effort to start the idea that the two episodes in question,6a.1 and 6b.2 are like mirror episodes, Gemini or twin-like episodes.There are other instances I forgot like Rusty saying in 6a.1 at Ray's funeral "..stand-up guys like that are A DYING BREED" and himself getting whacked a few episodes later.If nobody's interested fair enough but I do think,along with a few others that there is something to it.

[Parps]

How about the similarities between the pilot and "Made in America"? I count several.

[badabellisima]

..That leaves us with number seven.Tony.Identified as "remains".The first sight we have of Tony in THIS episode? He's digging a hole in the ground!!(I won't even touch that one bada,see? I'm learning)...
Sorry- but i still don't get your meaning. i can't tell if you are insulting me or what, but its not funny.:confused:

[badabellisima]

Meanwhile- i love this thread and your ideas are interesting. i hope we have enough posters staying involved to give this the time it deserves. i tried to get someone to pick up more on the seven souls analysis last year, but most of us just couldn't stay away from obsessing about the end scene, and we kept drifting off topic. dsweeney, please do review some of the seven souls posts- there are many in the most active threads after the finale, or do a post search.

- Didn't Tony get the sevens at the casino?

Important and significant topic, imo.

[turangawaewae]

Sorry- but i still don't get your meaning. i can't tell if you are insulting me or what, but its not funny.:confused:

Why do you think people are so intent on getting an answer?
DAVID CHASE: I remember I would tell my kid and her cousins bedtime stories. Sometimes I would want to get back to the grown-ups and have a drink, so I would say something like, ''And they were driving down the road and that's it. Story over.'' They would always scream, ''Wait a minute! That's no ending!'' Apparently that need for finality exists in human beings. But we're not children anymore. Especially watching a show like The Sopranos that's got sex and violence.

More evidence to support Chase I think.

[dsweeney]

Sorry- but i still don't get your meaning. i can't tell if you are insulting me or what, but its not funny.:confused:

God no Bada I didn't mean to insult you in anyway.What I meant was that for me the image of Tony digging a hole in the ground,especially in light of what happens the other characters identified with each of the "seven souls",was very ominous for him indeed.But I didn't want to refer to the ending AGAIN,as per your instructions to try and keep to the thread in question.That's all I meant Bada,I wasn't in anyway being sarcastic.You're the only bit of encouragement I've had here.Sorry if it came across wrongly.My fault.

[badabellisima]

Oh duh! i get you now. Digging his own grave. Why am i so tone deaf lately?!! :icon_biggrin:

The good thing about being too literal, however, is that sometimes i can pick up on other meanings, or downright conjur up fabricated ones!!

At first glance, i was thinking of digging like a place to bury his treasure for future financial security, or digging a place for hiding evidence that could be useful later, or destroying it if it could hurt him later.

But you're definitely on to something about, for example, the connection to first Tony's stomach rub, then the hole the size of a fist appearing there. Like the source of the trouble manifesting itself after its acknowledgement by the host.

Makes me wonder about the "Let sleeping dogs lie" concept. Once you wake them up, you might get bit.

So is it better that Tony or anyone pay heed to warning signs?

Like a cancer or infection, if you catch it soon enough, you can sometimes prevent dying by it. Sometimes. Other times, imo (not medically founded), tampering with it can wake it up, possibly surgically accidentally spread the tumor/infection more, and it gets you sooner.

Ignorance is bliss (for some people), especially if they know they're gonna die anyway.

[dsweeney]

"Members Only",6a.1 as gateway to all things past,present and future.
I have a few more instances developing idea.
In 6a.1. Hesh says the guys who attacked them were driving a Lexus.Chris misunderstands him and Hesh has a pop at him.In 6a.2 the guy at the bar cracks a joke about Kevin Finnerty driving a Lexus.Tony misunderstands him and the guy explains the joke,Kev infinity,Lexus.Now I believe,along with others,that this sort of near replica exchange of dialogue is not coincidence.
In 6a.1, at Ray's funeral Rusty says to Tony "is Phil Leotardo here? 'Cos I can't be in the same room as that guy".I don't have the exact quote to hand but I know Johnny Sac said something almost identical about Ralphie,in possibly "The Weight". "I can't be in the same room with this man".Something to that effect.Ditto as above.
On a less savoury note;Again,6a.1. Phil arrives late for a meeting and Vito says "I'm starting to get mushrooms growing outta my ass" and Phil replies "now there's an image!".I believe this exchange to be a reference to or a tie-in to Vito's ultimate demise at the hands of Phil but more pointedly to the strategic application of a pool cue to his anatomy.
Just one small point on the "Seven souls" sequence at the start of the episode.Remember,in it we see Carmela's dream of Adriana in the spec house BEFORE she refers to it in real time later in the episode.Not a major point but just re-enforcing the notion of the prophetic qualities of the sequence.
Could I clarify my position as to where my thinking ha taken me thus far on this thread? As I see it,there are five characters identified in the "Seven souls" monologue WHOSE FATE WE KNOW.Of these,four are dead and as The Guardian Angel Meadow,I think most people would agree is sort of special and survives.This leaves us with TWO identified characters whose fate is unknown.AJ and Tony.
With this in mind could I refer you to the scene in 6a.1 where Eugene is driving away after shooting Teddy? In it,he wipes his bloodied hand on the map beside him and leaves TWO clear,distinct and IMO sinister blood lines that we are meant to see as significant (again IMO).Is it at least possible that these TWO,not three or four,but TWO blood lines refer to the two specified "seven souls" characters? It might be a bit of a reach but if you look at the episode in the spirit of it being a kind of portent to the fates of these characters it certainly feels as if this could be the case.The two blood marks are clearly meant to be of some significance IMO.Has anybody got any other theories/takes on this short scene? I'd be interested to hear them as sometimes you can look at something too closely and miss what's staring you in the face.

[SilvioMancini]

Well, because the blood is wiped ona map of New York (I think) I always assumed if it portended anything it was the fighting within the NY family to fill John S. position. As we know this led to a lot of blood. But then I also think of the episode of Chrissys' baby getting baptised and that creepy song that says bloody over and over plays in the background. But I always took it as a harbinger of more blood about to spill in NY\NJ, hence the map...

[dsweeney]

Well, because the blood is wiped ona map of New York (I think) I always assumed if it portended anything it was the fighting within the NY family to fill John S. position. As we know this led to a lot of blood. But then I also think of the episode of Chrissys' baby getting baptised and that creepy song that says bloody over and over plays in the background. But I always took it as a harbinger of more blood about to spill in NY\NJ, hence the map...
Fair point SilivioMancini,like I said it was a bit of a reach on my part,a gut instinct. You could be right,it may well just refer to the impending war but I feel that Eugene being one of the "Seven souls" characters identified, it means a little more than that.Also did the hit on Teddy not take place in Boston,not Brooklyn where Phil's faction are from? But yeah actually,thinking on it now,you're probably right,bloodstains on a map of NY.Yeah,I'll go with you on that,pretty obvious actually.Like I said,sometimes you can be looking too close and miss the main point.
That's an interesting spot about Chris's baby's baptism that I'll watch again.But you reminded me of a small point in 6a.1, again.When Tony is reaming Bobby out for not taking care of Uncle Jun he says something about the kids delaying him and the baby-seat being a hassle;"you remember that stuff right?".Tony replies "I didn't do any of that crap".Kinda makes a mockery out of his "concern" over the baby-seat in the back of Chris' car in the crash. Not much I know but again it's little references seeming to echo and repeat from 6a.1.

[SilvioMancini]

Good catch on the baby seat! That was totally a chase machine implant. I never caught that. There is so many. Its like doing an endless crossword puzzle!