Members Only Guy

[turangawaewae]

ok. It's been quiet in here, so what better way to liven it up then to talk about the Holstens scene!!
I rewatched the final episode again tonight, and concentrated on the actions of the members only jacket guy. He features in the background in a couple of shots, but features prominently four times.
1. When he walks in
2. When he is sitting at the counter waiting, he looks around the diner
3. When the couple in the booth laugh, he looks up while stirring his coffee
4. When he walks to the toilet.

I don't know if it is because I have rewatched it, and the suspence isn't there, but he seems far less sinister then when I first watched it.
Firstly, whenever I go to a bar, restaurant etc on my own. After I've sat down, I always check out the people in the bar/diner, to see if I know any of them, or to see if any of them are hot women (sorry:icon_redface: ).
When he looks up because the couple are laughing, he actually SMILES. Right at the end, before it flashes to Tony's booth, he smiles. He is clearly looking at, and reacting to the young couple laughing. If you are about to cap Tony Soprano, would you be relaxed enough to smile at a laughing couple? With Tony there, he also comes in, sits down, orders a cup of tea/coffee, stirs it, waits a while, then gets up and walks to the toilet. Why wait so long? I've heard the theory he was waiting for Meadow to arrive, but he went to the toilet before she arrived. How did he know she was coming? The screen also goes black at the exact instant Meadow enters. If he was waiting for Meadow, he doesn't have enough time to see Meadow, then shoot Tony.

[richjcrouch]

I think, looking at the way Chase had total control over every little detail, we can read into the surrounding items.

Firstly, he was in a Members Only jacket for a reason. Now, whether that was to tell us he was 'connected' or not I could only theorise, the only thing we know for sure is that at some point, chase said 'this guy needs to be wearing a Members Only jacket'.

It could either be to give the false impression that he was going to kill Tony, or to give the impression he was going to kill Tony.

My theory, for what it's worth, is that the final scene was designed to give us the most insight into actually being Tony that we have ever had.

Most of the series is made so that we watch Tony, some of us empathise with him, some of us loathe him, but we never actually know what it is like to be him.

The final scene no doubt creates suspense, we believe something may happen. As has been pointed out before, certain cinemgraphic techniques were employed to give us that sense.

We started to think something was about to happen, and started to look for possible suspects.

In his everyday life, Tony always looks for suspect, he always thinks something might happen, it's a consequence of his job, and something that we will never truly appreciate unless we're in that situation.

He has to live his life watching his back, until the final scene, we only knew he had to do that, but never experienced it for ourselves.

Even if he got out, his life would have to carry on that way - it mirrors accounts of former SAS soldiers, who cannot enter a room without looking for two exits, even years after their active service, it's ingrained in them to be suspicious of everyone and always have a contingency, much like it is ingrained in Tony that there is always a price on his head; when things are going well, the 'gunman' is a police officer, when they are bad, the gunman could be anyone.

There are other details can all be deemed important or inconsequencial. They are designed to give us an impending sense of doom.

For once, we weren't wathing someone with an axe over his head, we had the axe over ours too.

Whether it came down or not is irrelevant to the fact that we were, for a brief duration, given a taste of what it must feel like to suspect everyone, and trust no one.

[turangawaewae]

This is actually pretty bang on to my view on the final scene. I have often argued against the members only guy killed Tony crowd, as an opposing view to those people who staunchly believed he killed Tony, and that there was "evidence" in the final scene. As a result, I may have come across as being in the "Tony Lived" camp, whereas as in reality I am in the I'm buggared if I know what ultimately happened camp. I do think the distinction you make is vital with regards to the techniques to create suspense. Where some have interpretated those techniques as Chase telling us MOG killed Tony, I believe you are correct in your view that their vital role was to create suspense so we could walk in Tony's shoes. As Chase said, (and to use your terminology), whether the axe fell that night or twenty years later is irrelevant. We were just for once finding out what it was like to BE Tony, as opposed to cheering or booing from the sidelines.
Just my opinion though of course.

[badabellisima]

Well said Turangawaewae! :icon_biggrin:

[Irishwiseguy]

I agree that the Members only guy was there to up the suspense. The whole last scene was designed to put the viewer in Tony's shoes. So we finally knew what it felt like to be Tony, all his stresses and worries regarding his family, friends and the mob. All summed up in 3 minutes of cinematic perfection.

[turangawaewae]

I agree that the Members only guy was there to up the suspense. The whole last scene was designed to put the viewer in Tony's shoes. So we finally knew what it felt like to be Tony, all his stresses and worries regarding his family, friends and the mob. All summed up in 3 minutes of cinematic perfection.

So is this the Sisyphis (sp) Myth comparison? Tony's life of rolling the rock up the hill??

[Irishwiseguy]

Essentially ya. I think pretty much everyone can relate to it. I know it can appear to be a pessimistic view of life, but it all depends on how you look at it. But I also think think there is a hell of a lot more to the final scene then just putting us "In his shoes" and the comparison to the Myth of Sisyphus. You also mentioned that a lot of the suspense was gone the second time you watched it, that in hindsight that there was nobody lurking behind the corner ready to jump out, or that something catastrophic was going to happen. Basically in my opinion David Chase was telling us not to worry. All we do is worry, worry and more worrying. It gets us nowhere, there is no point to it. It reminds me of Carmela in Paris, when she said that (paraphrasing here) "all we do is worry and then it all gets washed away". Is there really anything so fearful and so great, that we should let this fear control our lives? I don't think so. Again, this is only one element to the final scene and the overall season.

This also reminds me that I should sit down and write out my overall view and opinion of David Chases vision. Especially considering that I haven't written much on these forums regarding the final scene.

[turangawaewae]

Essentially ya. I think pretty much everyone can relate to it. I know it can appear to be a pessimistic view of life, but it all depends on how you look at it. But I also think think there is a hell of a lot more to the final scene then just putting us "In his shoes" and the comparison to the Myth of Sisyphus. You also mentioned that a lot of the suspense was gone the second time you watched it, that in hindsight that there was nobody lurking behind the corner ready to jump out, or that something catastrophic was going to happen. Basically in my opinion David Chase was telling us not to worry. All we do is worry, worry and more worrying. It gets us nowhere, there is no point to it. It reminds me of Carmela in Paris, when she said that (paraphrasing here) "all we do is worry and then it all gets washed away". Is there really anything so fearful and so great, that we should let this fear control our lives? I don't think so. Again, this is only one element to the final scene and the overall season.

This also reminds me that I should sit down and write out my overall view and opinion of David Chases vision. Especially considering that I haven't written much on these forums regarding the final scene.


That certainly ties in with the Indian saying on the wall in the hospital.....
He also didn't portray worriers in a very good light, such as Lydia and Paulie, and AJ with his depression.

[dsweeney]

If you believe the finale was just to put us in Tony's shoes what's your explanation for the jarring mid-scene cut-to-black? The following ten seconds of nothing? This is not a conventional life goes on ending.Nobody who is of the opinion that Tony doesn't necessarily die,has offered any plausible explanation for this.They just ignore it.How can you dismiss the fact there is no music during the credits? At the instant of his death,WE ARE Tony,that's why we don't see it happening which is what Chase wanted.No cliched bloodbath Scarface ending. (I believe the scene with Mink trying to get Ketchup out of the bottle,and failing is a nod to this).

[Detective Hunt]

If you believe the finale was just to put us in Tony's shoes what's your explanation for the jarring mid-scene cut-to-black? The following ten seconds of nothing? This is not a conventional life goes on ending.Nobody who is of the opinion that Tony doesn't necessarily die,has offered any plausible explanation for this.They just ignore it.How can you dismiss the fact there is no music during the credits? At the instant of his death,WE ARE Tony,that's why we don't see it happening which is what Chase wanted.No cliched bloodbath Scarface ending. (I believe the scene with Mink trying to get Ketchup out of the bottle,and failing is a nod to this).
It has actually been discussed in many places on this forum, dsweeney. Look and you'll find plenty of great discussion and suggestions regarding the black screen and all the various things it might mean from Tony dying, to we the audience getting whacked, or simply David Chase shutting us out of this world as there is simply no more story left to tell. That is my personal interpretation - there is no reason to show anything else because the story will not change any longer - Tony may die that night or some time in the future (of course he will) - that is not really the important thing to take away from the finale, IMHO. It's that Tony was offered a chance to escape this fate and chose not to go with it (any more than anyone else involved in this world, except possible Meadow who is conspicuously absent from the table.) Thus Tony is doomed. When and how seems rather inconsequential unless one just wants blood which Chase decided specifically NOT to to show.

Note also that I see this is a almost duplicate of the comment you gave in the What Happens When the Screen Goes Black thread. Please do not double post your comments in multiple threads. This discussion should be geared towards MOG and not the black screen so if you wish to discuss that further, I suggest you make sure it is done there.

[dsweeney]

Jesus, you people are strict! I fail to see how you can discuss MOG and NOT talk about the cut-to-black but anyhow I'll leave it alone.
One small point about MOG if I may.Some people have referred to the slightly odd editing early in the Holsten's scene where Tony appears to be looking at himself.I believe this is actually just to establish the view from the doorway.In other words this is exactly what MOG sees upon entering Holsten's.

[Detective Hunt]

Jesus, you people are strict! I fail to see how you can discuss MOG and NOT talk about the cut-to-black but anyhow I'll leave it alone.
You'd also do well not to question the policy of the moderators, which if you are not aware, I am one. Otherwise you'll find you will have a very short stay with us. DH.