Mad Men General Discussion Thread

[badabellisima]

Here's the new place to discuss Mad Men, created and written by Mathew Weiner, previous co-writer with David Chase on many significant Sopranos episodes. This link will take you to AMC's Mad Men website. Interface is bit clumsy, but search around thru the tabs and you can watch the episodes online for freeee! Watch it on Sundays at 10pm, or anytime On Demand with Comcast or online. :smile:

http://www.amctv.com/originals/madmen/about/

[badabellisima]

Anyone catch last night's new epsode? Quite a change in direction to say the least! This season is turning out to be quite different than last season so far. Don and Betty's roles have really changed, and i can sure see trouble coming. Have to say that their story does sound alot like the stories of people i have known that were raised in that era. You can see the budding potential eating disorders/ (maybe later developing anorexia?) issues and possibly alchohol probs down the road for little Sally. And as for Betty- not exactly a future 'Mrs. Robinson', but we are really getting to see her dark side! Not sure how characteristic Don's candidness about his childhood beatings was, but their discussion of it was an important milestone in their relatonship, imo. And hopefully, it will help Bobby get a break from that crazy hand he's been getting dealt lately.

And back at the office, what was up with Duck questioning the presence of Harry in the American Airlines prep meeting? Was that little exchange just to show us that they aren't up to speed on the coming importance of television commercials- or just that Harry hasn't really made his mark? Did i miss something there? How 'bout the scene with Bobbi Barrett-- rang a bit hollow to me.

[jouster]

Pretty close to the best this show has to offer, in my opinion. Excellent balance between all the storylines.

I liked the scene with Bobbi. I think it worked at least partially to get Don off the hook for his behavior with her in the last episode; we see how soon she comes to see him after that incident, and how she once again pushes Don hard for a sexual encounter. Clearly she has her own code of conduct and Don didn't go too far beyond that. I am definitely curious about the potential TV show plotline - I assume we'll be seeing more of her and of Jimmy in upcoming episodes.

The kids were strong in this episode, I thought. Sally made me laugh a couple of times, particularly her clapping when she finds out she's going into work with Don, and Bobby generated a lot of sympathy. He seems like such a somber little kid. I think I saw an echo of sixth season Sopranos there - does Betty hate Bobby the way Tony hated AJ?

Colin Hanks fit in very well. He's a better actor than I thought.

[badabellisima]

Yeah, young Bobby is quite the little actor! That sympathy-generating scene when he came into the bedroom and apologized to his dad was amazing- and then with Don giving him a hug-- well, truly touching. For a minute there ( i figure on purpose), the camera kind hung on him when he was standing in the doorway, and he had a stance that was imo made to look exactly like the stance they showed young Adam in during one of the flashback scenes at the railroad station (when they received "Don's" coffin), as well as a scene when Adam was older and waiting for Don to respond to him-- Sort of limp arms and a silent, yearning face. Heartbreaking- and evoked a tug of compassion from Don, and me too.

You're right about Colin Hanks- surprisingly good in this unusual role. Couldn't quite tell if they were trying to make a judgement about the fact that Peg's sister sort of ratted her out to the priest (what's the real motivation for that weird confession?); or was the point that the sister genuinely had conflict about the situation? She seems like a nice enough person- and truly big hearted to raise mini-Pete as her own.

One thing i know- in real life, no way would a priest let a conversation run on like that, with the confessing person talking/gossiping about someone else's supposed sin. Another thing- any other Catholics out there that can answer this one?: Peggy's sister (character name Anita Olson Respola) started to make the final Act of Contrition in english (with the priest doing the latin part), and she spoke the term "In the Name of the Father, Son and "Holy Spirit". This was in 1962, which was still pre-1965 Vatican II. I'm pretty sure it would be most likely that in 1962 she would have said "Father, Son and Holy Ghost". Then again, maybe thats just how it was in my old-fashioned little town. Some people still say Holy Ghost.

Even during the Sopranos- sometimes they got the catholic cultural references 'wrong', or misunderstood, and it would bug me. For example, like using the confessional to convey information in a way that really would have been unlikely (They made similar mistakes in scenes showing Carmella and Father Intintola). It seemed apparent that they had advice from someone who really didn't have a handle on the history or true knowledge of the changes resulting in current practices, which then made the authenticity fall short.

Other Mad Men church scenes obviously took great care to acurately re-create the pre-vatican II Mass: The priest with his back to the people while consecrating the host, saying the Mass in Latin, etc. (Now of course, the Mass is in English or whatever local language, the priest faces the people, and the people participate more and are included).

Even the name of Peggy's church is of great significance: The Church of the Holy Innocents, which refers to the story of all the baby boys killed off by King Herod. Per the gospel of Matthew, after the visit of the Magi, (or three kings, or shepherds), Herod, in a fit of rage and jealousy, ordered all the baby boys in Bethlehem and surrounding countryside to be slaughtered in an attempt to destroy his perceived rival, the infant Jesus, the Messiah. These "innocents" are honored by the Catholic Church as martyrs.

i think its an important image here, because a key theme has been the fact that Peggy had an "out-of-wedlock" child at a time when there was usually no option for unwed mothers; and now in this ep, we are seeing her sister grapple with it. The obvious counterpoint: abortion-- came up as a major theme in the past ep, with a focus on Peggy's response about it regarding the Belle Jolie commercial potentially planned for The Defender's episode dealing with abortion.

Its apparent that Weiner won't be shy about developing this major theme and factor of change prominent in the 60's, leading to the socially approved Roe vs. Wade solution to unwanted pregnancy in 1972, which many perceive to be a sort of slaughter of Innocents.

When the priest gives Peggy the Easter egg "for the Little One" (after the camera focuses on her little boy toddling by)- clearly her sister Anita is in the background observing. Where is she really coming from? Its not yet fully clear to me, but i am suspicious. i can't help but think of the hypocrisy that i have often observed, especially as a catholic from within my own religion: judgement and shame directed towards the unwed biological mother, while at the same time further judgement and shame in modern "post Roe v. Wade" times towards mothers who abort. "Damned if you do, damned if you don't".

[jouster]

Perhaps I'm naive, but I think Peggy's sister is coming from exactly where she said she was during the confession. She sees herself as the good daughter, the one who has done everything as she should, and has gotten no credit, while her sister, who had a baby out of wedlock (with a married man the father, to boot), receives no punishment and is, in fact, not judged at all for it, seemingly. The one thing their mother does do is pressure Peggy to go to church, which her sister of course already does. Of course, the reason the family walks on eggshells with regards to Peggy is because she was deemed to have had a breakdown (this is reading between the lines, but I get the feeling she was committed for a short time after her son's birth, at least for evaluation, and she was definitely deemed unfit to raise the child herself), so they're just pleased that she seems to have recovered and became friendly with Father Gil. Her sister is possibly not as understanding as the rest of the family, though she is certainly a good person to be raising Peggy's baby, and the friendship seems like an undeserved reward for Peggy to her, I think. I'm not even sure she intended to "rat on" Peggy when she made the confession - I don't know if there was malice in what she did. Hopefully my point here is not too muddled.

As far as the gossiping in the confession, we saw that Father Gil is untraditional both when he says grace and with his sermon. Couple that with his relative youth and the shock of what he had heard, and I think that's a possible reason why he allowed that to happen.

[badabellisima]

i agree and will give you and your position the benefit of the doubt. What suspicion i felt was vague, and not at all supported by anything definite shown to us in the story. Interesting that you say "eggshells" considering the last scene!

[jouster]

Haha, that hadn't even occurred to me! How 'bout that.

This is turning out to be a nice discussion, despite lack of participants. I could have sworn other members were watching.

[badabellisima]

yeah- me too! Parps will probably come online and a few others in time as they check in. If not- well...give it some time, or, there's an okay discussion going on at amctv.com....

[badabellisima]

Tried to post at the amctv.com "talk" blog...- but they're having lots of trouble with their very cumbersome- lame -forum. My first post is already lost and lots of people are complaining about the format (no indexing, etc.).

i 'spose if no one is going to chime in here- well, we can't wait forever, as the show is so hot- and demands attention and discussion!! Anyone else posting somewhere on this incredible show? :icon_biggrin:

[Parps]

and demands attention and discussion!!

This is true. I actually watch the second season downloaded because I live in a backwater European country but I'm gonna try to contribute to this discussion. Maybe we should invite more people?

[Jackie or Marilyn]

The episode tonight (August 31) made me laugh out loud. Between the "braditions" and Don tying up Bobbi Barrett and stoically leaving as he says, "I told you to stop talking"--a quintessential Don Draper move. Good for Peggy for insisting that she be included in the "Good Ol' Boys" network. I liked the parallel between Pete looking at her resentfully any time Peggy looks or acts like an adult woman exhibiting sexuality and the way that Don talked to Betty when he saw her in the bikini. They are both thinking, "I have marked her as my territory, and now she's flaunting herself like she's available to other men."

There have been many references now to the fact that Don completely blocks things from his mind that he doesn't care to think about. By Peggy's bedside in the hospital, he says something like, "You will be shocked at how little it will affect you." When Peggy loaned him money to get out of jail, he completely forgot that she was there for him and owed her money until she brought it up. In this episode, Bobbi asks him if he thinks about the crash, and he says, "Why would I"? He is scary in his ability to compartmentalize.

Oh, and poor Chauncy! What a jerk! I can't wait to see Duck completely destroyed.

[badabellisima]

Warning- spoilers ahead...

Yeah- i have to say the Chauncy scene cut into my core. i had to force myself to stay okay and remember its just a show on t.v.; however, if there was alot more of that sort of thing in this season, i'd have a hard time staying with it, because it just felt too bad to see it. i right away fantasized that someone was going to find him and he'd be living in a much better place with an air-conditioned doghouse for the summer and all the dogbones he could desire! Any sort of animal cruelty is off limits to me- like the Pie O' My scene in the Sopranos. However,- made it easier to say adios to Ralphie.

Meanwhile, you mentioned about Don's cold treatment of Bobbie after she spoke too much- but imo, the whole point of that strange scene at the very end of the episode was to show us exactly that he is gaining a conscience about that: He stared at himself in the mirror after he heard his daughter Sally telling him how she would stop talking to him while he was shaving so he wouldn't cut himself. He let his own reflection speak back to him, and he got it that he had somehow ('sub-conciously'...) trained Sally into thinking that talking to him should be avoided in order to stay in his good graces. Sally adores her dad, and now Don realizes how he has suppressed her,and he didn't like what he saw in the mirror. Thats the first painful step to his self-realization of who he really is, and how his behavior/way of being might hurt a young innocent person whom he loves. i thought that last scene with its dark ending music was incredibly powerful. Weiner has done it once again- a truly amazing episode, and just when i was getting a tiny bit fearful that it would go soap opera-ish.

[AJColossal]

The show is really starting to remind me of mid-period Sopranos, where the writers seemed to be more focused on inward-looking character study than plot development. But by the time The Sopranos really delved into that kind of storytelling, there was such a history and weight to the characters that the approach worked as a way to fine tune and add nuance to what was already built over years. It's curious that we are not even halfway through the second season, and Mad Men is already taking this approach.

Just curious if anyone is anticipating a bit more of a "bang", plot-wise, or is this the pace that you think Weiner will keep? Granted, I know that this is not the Sopranos, but there are so many things that remind me of it that I wonder what's in store.

[Jackie or Marilyn]

Yes, I thought the same thing about Don's moment of conscience at the end. That's what makes this show so compelling--and very like the Sopranos for that matter. No matter how much of a complete bastard Don is most of the time, it is clear that he is a man of conscience who loves deeply and who is a product of his time and culture. He wears the Don Draper mask because with it he commands respect, attention and authority--things he never had as a boy or a younger man. It's addictive, but the writers let us see the cracks in the mortar where Don seems afraid he is losing himself or his soul by playing this part.

[Jackie or Marilyn]

In response to AJ, I do think we are headed for a "bang". The show does seem to be developing slowly over the past few episodes. I think it is building up to a heck of a climax.

[badabellisima]

Geez! Talk about inward character development, etc....What an episode last night! I had sort thought that they'd be phasing out the Jimmy and Bobbie Barrett storyline, and ZING- Weiner used them to skewer Don Draper like a laser! That ending was incredibly powerful. And for the second time, a character used giving too much alchohol to someone on purpose, to make them sick. And in the sacred car no less!! Seems to me that this is sort of the pace Weiner is setting for the long haul. It would be hard to top the first season's unexpected cliffhanger ending; but since its still got a lot of unresolved issues associated with it- hard to say where this season is going. LOts of loosed ends hinted at for the next ep- i can't wait!

[gistenhose]

I haven't been on the site for awhile and just discovered this post. I love the show and your discussions have been great. I hope more folks join. Just like the Sopranos, I started watching the show, and was distracted by the genre. Your posts about characters, symbolism, etc. is refreshing and bringing me back to the good old Chase Lounge posts after Sopranos episodes.

Hope it keeps up

[badabellisima]

Me too. --It is hard to carry on a conversation without more participants. i have been checking into the talk forum at amctv.com, but the format is so lame, its almost impossible to find posts, and they keep losing posts. There are some fairly interesting observations there- when i have a chance, i might try to reference some of them here. Without a doubt- like Sopranos, Madmen is one for the ages.

[Garth]

This show is great. I need to be more active in this thread.

[badabellisima]

Mad Men Wins 6 Emmys Including Best Drama on Television


per amctv:

It's official. Mad Men is the best drama on television. The show won an Emmy saying as much, in the process beating out contenders Boston Legal, Damages, Dexter, House and Lost. Creator Matthew Weiner got his own statuette as well for Best Writing, Drama Series for the pilot "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes." ...Four other Emmys were awarded to Mad Men as part of the Creative Arts Prime Time Emmys last weekend, giving the series a grand total of six Emmys. The other awards were as follows...
The episode "Shoot" won an Emmy for Outstanding Hairstyling for a Single-Camera Series; the pilot episode "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" won an Emmy for Outstanding Art Direction for a Single-Camera Series. The series also won for Outstanding Main Title Design (click here for interview (http://blogs.amctv.com/mad-men/2008/03/qa-title-design.php)), and Outstanding Cinematography for a One-Hour Series (also in relationship to the pilot episode). To learn more about the show, be sure to check out AMC's Mad Men minisite. Click here for bios of the stars, photos of previous episodes and a video sneak peek of next week's show (http://www.amctv.com/originals/madmen/).
If you're a newcomer to the series, you can check out the Season 2 Premiere in its entirety online.

http://blogs.amctv.com/mad-men/play-video-btn.gif (http://www.amctv.com/videos/madmen/)



Seeing as how they skipped a new episode this past Sunday due to the Emmy's, - i plan to get back on track over here after this coming Sunday's new ep: "Six Month Leave". Really intriguing sneakpeak video on amctv.com...Looks like Don is going down a whole new road!

[conkom]

Just want to say that we have watched the first three episodes of this series and we have enjoyed it. Don't know if it will be our Sopranos replacement but it is so far compelling if not quite addictive.

Looking forward to joining in the discussion once we get through a few more episodes.

One question though is there a "Return of Martin Guerre/Sommersby" sub-plot going on with Don Draper's past?

[badabellisima]

Warning Spoilers ahead!

Well how about 'ole Sterling!! Ending up with the "Jackie" instead of the "Marilyn"! --especially after there is no more "Marilyn", literally....This epi tops 'em all. Bummed about Freddie- such a nice guy- and a vet, too. i wish they would've given him more of a chance.

[aprilemoney]

I haven't written about Mad Men on this site but I was recently posting (about a Soprano's movie via Frank Santorelli) and came across Mad Men discussion.

Excellent show! This weeks episode was truly one of the best shows of the series. I too, felt bad for Freddy. But you just can't "cross that line" in the work place. I think sooner or later, Freddy would have embarrassed the agency. If he is pissing his pants in his office, what else could happen? He had to be let go.

Pete Cambell continues to be a backstabbing piece of garbage. I think Don is going to get him back for his disloyalty. I hope anyway.

I think Sterling's current situation allows Don to take a closer look at his situation. Should he follow Roger's lead and leave his wife? (Obviously he wouldnt bring it to work like that idiot weak Roger did) But I thought Don was disgusted with Roger at the end of the episode.

Don is questioning whether he should move forward. Is there more out there? Or is this it? The family, the job, the wife, the life? Major questions facing Don Draper.

Also Peggy is quickly moving up the corporate ladder. Apparently following Don's philosophy of "forgetting it ever happened" has worked well...so far..
I'm sure Matt Weiner is going to create some great twists for this character.

I love this show...But a Soprano's movie is what is on my mind!

[badabellisima]

Totally agree. i'm sure they'll be uber secretive about any movie info- so we can speculate to our heart's content! i soooo hope it's true!

Meanwhile on MadMen- not sure i quite get the disappointment from Don at the very end. i watched the re-cap analysis from Weiner on amctv.com (on the "inside madmen" video tab), so it does seem that disappointment is what they intended to convey.

But even though i'm a little too young to have been working in the 60's, later in the 80-90's when i was coming up in my career, there were a bunch of oldtimers in this conservative NY-based broker office i worked in, who still held court in a very similar manner, risking lawsuits from their blatant sexist behavior. i always felt i was like in a timewarp from an old 60's sitcom. We even had an older 60-70's style office with some of the original old furniture and IBM Selectrics around for the older non-computer literates. I loved 'em all- they even wore perfect old hairdos and meticulous skirts and makeup. Priceless and inspiring in their own way. The fun part was that no one gave me evil stares if i grabbed my male boss a cuppa coffee or even flirted a bit! We had a good time and got the job done-(no crime to be young and female, imo...Viva La Difference!). I truly do feel like i can relate to alot of this show on a personal level. i'm fairly certain that some of the older guys might have had some legal action over situations with their secretaries from the past in the 70's.

My take is that it seems more likely, at that time anyway, that the men of Sterling Cooper would circle the wagons around Roger Sterling, and not pass judgement about him leaving Mona. They'd be comisserating at some bar by lunchtime, only returning to the office to make an appearance by 4:55pm, then returning to the cocktail lounge after work. i say this because i actually observed/participated in this sort of gathering more than a few times at that point in my career, as i was included in a kind of Peggy sort of way, only without the dorky pony tail and frumpy clothes (hot skirts and stilletos for me!). Alot of the real business accomplished did actually occur after hours at local watering holes or taking clients out to dinner, baseball games, other perks, etc. Alas, most of my current crowd would not even recognize me from then! It was a different time...not so long ago....:icon_rolleyes:

For all the advances of modern labor law, i must say that i have many more fun memories of working then, than now. There truly seems to be a much unhappier office demeanor now, in general, everywhere- in many different places i have worked. i have read articles on studies that bear this out. More stress, open competition and backbiting between women now than i ever recall from earlier times. That being said- of course there were many bad and sad things about the previous eras, and i am not advocating a return to it at all. Its always easier, per Tony and AJ, to 'remember the good times' of the past. Its just that perhaps we threw out the baby with the bathwater in some ways (literally, via Roe v. Wade, etc.), and so maybe the pendulum might swing back a bit towards center. Just some thoughts.

Now i will prepare myself for some possible flamemail coming my way! :icon_biggrin:

[badabellisima]

How 'bout that last episode- talk about redemption! (Don entering the cleansing ocean waves at the end). SInce no one's really interacting on this at this point- i won't go into too much detail for now.

Just a reminder: MadMen Season Finale NEXT WEEK!!! Can you believe it!? :icon_biggrin:

I'm already worried about withdrawal symptoms. :icon_frown: i plan to download the remaining eps and keep my i-pod handy. Re-watching them never gets old- just like with Sopranos eps.

[doow0p12]

Amazing Show!!! This is the type of stuff tv needs.

[Garth]

Wow, amazing finale. Those last three episodes were simply phenomenal.

[badabellisima]

(SPOILERS AHEAD!)

You said it: Phenomenal! Here are some good links on some discussion of this amazing show- including detailed interview with Matt Weiner:

-Mad Men Talk Forum/thread Links (about Peggy’s pregnancy and the now-revealed fact that her baby is gone forever; adopted out to strangers; and people’s misconception that her sister Anita was raising ‘him’), from amctv.com and Chicago Trib’s The Watcher:

http://blogs.amctv.com/mad-men/talk/2008/10/why-is-the-stor.php (http://blogs.amctv.com/mad-men/talk/2008/10/why-is-the-stor.php)

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/10/mad-men-peggy-b.html (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/10/mad-men-peggy-b.html)

-Here is The Watcher’s review on final ep:
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/10/mad-men-hamm-1.html (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/10/mad-men-hamm-1.html)

-And finally- really good to read this-
"Some thoughts on Season 2 (and Season 3) from 'Mad Men' creator Matthew Weiner"
=Link to Matt Weiner’s extensive interview about the show and this finale episode; clarifies a lot of important points. Also, he makes tiny mention of a connection to The Sopranos!:
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/10/mad-men-peggy-a.html (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/10/mad-men-peggy-a.html)

[badabellisima]

Here is the latest interview with Matt Weiner on the final ep of Mad Men. The second part will be posted next Monday, November 3rd. Really worth reading- gives huge hints about the next season and future of the show- i know all of us Maddicts are craving any info we can get, since next episode for Season 3 isn't until something like May 2009! :icon_biggrin:

http://blogs.amctv.com/mad-men/2008/10/matthew-weiner-interview-part-1.php

In Part I of AMCtv.com's exclusive interview, creator Matthew Weiner addresses the issue of sexual violence in Season 2 and explains Don's damaged psyche.

Log onto the Mad Men blog on Monday to read the second part of AMCtv.com's interview with Matthew Weiner.

Excerpt:

Q: What themes from 1962 did you try to incorporate into Season 2?

A: I was interested in materialism and the fact that the pursuit of objects and money can be very empty. I wanted to talk about the corporate struggle between artistic themes, which is the product that makes all the money, and the people who are in charge of administering that and collecting the money. Part of the theme of 1962 was youth: The Pepsi campaign was the campaign of the year, and this was a concentrated effort from Madison Avenue to tap into a bunch of people with money in their pockets and to adults that wanted to indulge them. The clients became obsessed with getting to the youth market, and the agencies became obsessed with getting young people who understood the youth market. It's the beginning of the baby boom and it's completely driven by young people -- and by old peoples' desire to embrace young people. Bob Dylan is 20 years old and everyone thinks he's the wisest person in the world.

Q: There's a perception that Season 2 featured a heightened amount of sexual violence, first with Don's interaction with Bobbie, then with Greg's attack on Joan.

A: I don't buy that. Certainly the thing with Joan was a reality that had been existing for a very long time -- it still exists -- and it was something we ignored on the show because I didn't know if I wanted it in this world. But it was par for the course for women then: Yes means yes, no means yes. In terms of Don, what I really wanted was for the audience to see that he was frustrated and bored. He's sworn off camera to Betty that he's going to be a different person -- he's home on time, he tells Betty when he's coming home. Then this thing happens with Bobbie, and he's intrigued that she's in it for the same reasons he is. Don's not trying to stick his hand under the dress of every client. That was their relationship -- she was using sex against him and he basically said "I'm in charge here," and she loved it. Don's a very different man than her husband, and it was a turn-on for a woman who's so powerful. It's a sexual thing, not a political thing.

...more at the link...