Kennedy and Heidi dream theory

[PaulieTheDestroyer]

hi, i'm new. anyway...

I saw the the bigger discussion thread on this episode but there is a detail supporting the argument that I didn't see there. I didn't read all 13 pages, but come on.

When Tony is standing in the desert with Sonya and is exclaiming to the sun in what I believe was the last shot (it's been a few months since I've seen the episode) and the sun appears to flicker and a fluorescent hum can be heard, like the overhead light he was staring into when he threw up and the trip started. Did he spend most or all of his 'journey' in the bathroom. I suspect that the whole Sonya character might have been imagined by Tony, a la Isabella, but there are some inconsistencies. Eh?

[turangawaewae]

Not a bad angle Paulie..
I think she did exist, as there were those shagging scenes before he took the drugs. I can swallow him taking the drugs, vomiting in the bathroom and hallucinating the rest though.

[Detective Hunt]

I think she existed too, but I admit, that is an angle I never considered before. Not like there isn't precedence for it. I'll have to think about that for a while.

[mutualdream]

Nah, I don't think so; that's interesting though.

Remember when Tony tells Paulie in MIA that his gambling luck has taken a 180 since Christopher died? He's clearly referring to all the money he won in Vegas.

[SilvioMancini]

IMO i think this was deliberately meant to feel like a dream while actually being real. Therefore correctly simulating the Peyote experience.

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

IMO i think this was deliberately meant to feel like a dream while actually being real. Therefore correctly simulating the Peyote experience.

Very good point. I tend to agree.

I firmly believe Sonja existed, as Tony's first interaction with her was before the peyote. I always leaned heavily towards the interpretation that the peyote trip into the casino and desert was real, although, in the end, I don't think it matters much whether it was real or imagined. Rather the epiphany Tony had, or thought he had, was important.

[badabellisima]

IMO i think this was deliberately meant to feel like a dream while actually being real. Therefore correctly simulating the Peyote experience.


As usual, you have an amazing way of boiling things down to succinct nuggets that clarify the point! Way back, Silvio had amazing posts on his take on the peyote aspect- worth re-reading or re-posting.

[Universal Polymath]

I've always rather enjoyed Fly and Billymac's take on the Vegas trip, and the space/celestial symbolism throughout (connecting back to "Join the Club" as well). However, the peyote trip itself represents something much more simple to me, that Tony's trip to Las Vegas more than anything symbolized his descent into hell.

In "Chasing It", Carlo mentions the episode of "The Twilight Zone" entitled "A Nice Place to Visit". The episode tells the story of a man who dies and ends up in a place where he never loses: He gets every girl he wants and wins every bet he places. He eventually becomes bored, and assuming he is in heaven, asks to go to "the other place" instead - Only to be informed that he is in the other place.

Just two episodes of "The Sopranos" later, this image is conjured again when Tony stumbles through the casino, Sonya on his arm, experiencing an implausibly lucky streak at the roulette table. The connection is completed by the cartoon devil placed prominently upon one of the slot machine, which temporarily transfixes Tony. Without the slightest bit of remorse for his hand in Chris' death, Tony - truly "comfortably numb" - has solidified his position in hell.

And the moment of redemption many of us fans had hoped Tony would reach by the series' end never really came. His epiphany at the end of "Kennedy and Heidi" was one last tease for us, but didn't quite signify the profound change in Tony we had hoped to see. And if we do choose to see Tony's peyote experience as symbolic of hell (only in the wake of the Twilight Zone episode mentioned a couple episodes earlier), we can then come to expect the ultimate destiny Fly found in the series end: An "eternity of darkness, nothingness, and eternal isolation from his family".

I don't know. Just my $0.02. I was always intrigued by the cartoon devil in the casino that Tony is so fixed on, but it wasn't until I re-watched the series and was reminded of Carlo's mention of the Twilight Zone episode that I really felt there was a strong connection between that and "Kennedy and Heidi", and thus between the casino and hell also.

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

However, the peyote trip itself represents something much more simple to me, that Tony's trip to Las Vegas more than anything symbolized his descent into hell.

In "Chasing It", Carlo mentions the episode of "The Twilight Zone" entitled "A Nice Place to Visit". The episode tells the story of a man who dies and ends up in a place where he never loses: He gets every girl he wants and wins every bet he places. He eventually becomes bored, and assuming he is in heaven, asks to go to "the other place" instead - Only to be informed that he is in the other place.

Just two episodes of "The Sopranos" later, this image is conjured again when Tony stumbles through the casino, Sonya on his arm, experiencing an implausibly lucky streak at the roulette table. The connection is completed by the cartoon devil placed prominently upon one of the slot machine, which temporarily transfixes Tony. Without the slightest bit of remorse for his hand in Chris' death, Tony - truly "comfortably numb" - has solidified his position in hell.

Great post, UP. I had no idea about the Twilight Zone ep (and Chase has mentioned that series as one of a very few that he always admired). I think it adds strongly to the hell symbolism that you and others pointed out, most pointedly represented by the devil on the slot machine and the similarities to Chris' NDE.

[badabellisima]

UP- ditto on what a great post. i plan to re-watch that TZ ep- itsa great one!

[SilvioMancini]

i gotta say Salud to my companerios for our discussion. I hope my words do not get taken personally in this post or any because I truly value the difference of opinions more than I value agreement. Or at least, I TRUST arguing and distrust constant agreeing. So I love all our own ideas we share and will never claim (I hope or shoot me) that I know-it-all. Believe my teenager and 5 yo remind me all the time I dont!

But back to this thread,

first of all heres a link to some peyote info http://www.americanethnography.com/january2008.php

Theres more to know but whos the authority on anything? I think it's important to note the insights Tony shares with Melfi about his experience. I think that interaction will show us more than anything about what Chase intended Tony to experience with his Vegas Journey. I will rewatch it soon and try to remember it all. But I do remember the thing about the bus and the child keeps trying to get back on the bas etc. etc. and then the solar system thing. I think Chase the whole last season was painting a Sistine Chapel sized moving picture! I mean there is symbolism abounding about the very question of life's existance. Alot of it was existential and intended to make the viewer ask themselves some of the same questions that Tony was looking for answers for. But realistically like the rest of us, our lives plodded on even after our "epiphany". It reminds me of Chases' comparison of the story to Sisiphus or whatever the name was. The never ending rolling rock up and down the hill. So how does this connect to Peyote? I think his epiphanies served him in the moment and engrained into him some wisdom. But ultimately like all of us, life has a way of plodding on no matter how much control or choice we might think we have. I think this is Chases way of trying to portray a very real common human struggle we all share but through ironically the most unlikely of modern day archetypes. The Mob Boss! Bravo Senor Chase! Bravo! As for me, I'll go back to knowing nothing now...........

[Detective Hunt]

i gotta say Salud to my companerios for our discussion. I hope my words do not get taken personally in this post or any because I truly value the difference of opinions more than I value agreement. Or at least, I TRUST arguing and distrust constant agreeing. So I love all our own ideas we share and will never claim (I hope or shoot me) that I know-it-all. Believe my teenager and 5 yo remind me all the time I dont!

But back to this thread,

first of all heres a link to some peyote info http://www.americanethnography.com/january2008.php

Theres more to know but whos the authority on anything? I think it's important to note the insights Tony shares with Melfi about his experience. I think that interaction will show us more than anything about what Chase intended Tony to experience with his Vegas Journey. I will rewatch it soon and try to remember it all. But I do remember the thing about the bus and the child keeps trying to get back on the bas etc. etc. and then the solar system thing. I think Chase the whole last season was painting a Sistine Chapel sized moving picture! I mean there is symbolism abounding about the very question of life's existance. Alot of it was existential and intended to make the viewer ask themselves some of the same questions that Tony was looking for answers for. But realistically like the rest of us, our lives plodded on even after our "epiphany". It reminds me of Chases' comparison of the story to Sisiphus or whatever the name was. The never ending rolling rock up and down the hill. So how does this connect to Peyote? I think his epiphanies served him in the moment and engrained into him some wisdom. But ultimately like all of us, life has a way of plodding on no matter how much control or choice we might think we have. I think this is Chases way of trying to portray a very real common human struggle we all share but through ironically the most unlikely of modern day archetypes. The Mob Boss! Bravo Senor Chase! Bravo! As for me, I'll go back to knowing nothing now...........
I can agree with this, the struggle for Tony to reach any real epiphany was just beyond his grasp, as he explains to Melfi. Much like Sisiphus who keeps trying to get the rock to the top of the hill, it always rolls back down to do it all over again. That is surely Tony's struggle - knowing there is something more worthy perhaps out there, and it always sitting just beyond his reach. The Peyote "trip" was, to me, the reminder that he is always looking for some way to see "beyond" his own life which I think he knew was disgusting, but just when he thinks he's reached some solid conclusion, it escapes him and instead becomes "just a pair of socks" as he had previously told Melfi after the coma dream. It must be maddening to be Tony Soprano.

[badabellisima]

i gotta say Salud to my companerios for our discussion. I hope my words do not get taken personally in this post or any because I truly value the difference of opinions more than I value agreement. Or at least, I TRUST arguing and distrust constant agreeing. So I love all our own ideas we share and will never claim (I hope or shoot me) that I know-it-all. Believe my teenager and 5 yo remind me all the time I dont!

But back to this thread,

first of all heres a link to some peyote info http://www.americanethnography.com/january2008.php

Theres more to know but whos the authority on anything? I think it's important to note the insights Tony shares with Melfi about his experience. I think that interaction will show us more than anything about what Chase intended Tony to experience with his Vegas Journey. I will rewatch it soon and try to remember it all. But I do remember the thing about the bus and the child keeps trying to get back on the bas etc. etc. and then the solar system thing. I think Chase the whole last season was painting a Sistine Chapel sized moving picture! I mean there is symbolism abounding about the very question of life's existance. Alot of it was existential and intended to make the viewer ask themselves some of the same questions that Tony was looking for answers for. But realistically like the rest of us, our lives plodded on even after our "epiphany". It reminds me of Chases' comparison of the story to Sisiphus or whatever the name was. The never ending rolling rock up and down the hill. So how does this connect to Peyote? I think his epiphanies served him in the moment and engrained into him some wisdom. But ultimately like all of us, life has a way of plodding on no matter how much control or choice we might think we have. I think this is Chases way of trying to portray a very real common human struggle we all share but through ironically the most unlikely of modern day archetypes. The Mob Boss! Bravo Senor Chase! Bravo! As for me, I'll go back to knowing nothing now...........
Once again you have posted eloquently with an excellent summary of the key points- and added frosting to the cake with your amazing insight and intuition about the day-to-day reality of living with an epiphany! i am guessing that having a 5-yr old and a teenager helps to humble anyone into not getting lost in the pie-in-the-sky! Anyway- thanks for bringing things down to earth- and yet at the same time, keeping us elevated. Sistine Chapel! Amazing. You are amazing to me. :smile:

[jkleier]

I can agree with this, the struggle for Tony to reach any real epiphany was just beyond his grasp, as he explains to Melfi. Much like Sisiphus who keeps trying to get the rock to the top of the hill, it always rolls back down to do it all over again. That is surely Tony's struggle - knowing there is something more worthy perhaps out there, and it always sitting just beyond his reach. The Peyote "trip" was, to me, the reminder that he is always looking for some way to see "beyond" his own life which I think he knew was disgusting, but just when he thinks he's reached some solid conclusion, it escapes him and instead becomes "just a pair of socks" as he had previously told Melfi after the coma dream. It must be maddening to be Tony Soprano.

Hi, this is my first time posting, but I have been reading here for a while and love it.

Initially, The Kennedy and Heidi episode was a blur to me. The day after it aired, I could not really explain what the episode was -- other than Tony's killing Chris. That was powerful. But everything that followed became a haze in my mind.

The idea brought up earlier in this thread about Vegas being real, but that it is filmed so that it felt like a dream... Bingo. We all know that the moving image of film can evoke tremendous emotions and perceptions as an audience watches. Chase got me, he successfully put me into a trance-like mindset. He filmed Vegas so well that I myself wasn't sure if it was real in the Sopranos' universe, a dream in that universe, or my dream.

The epsidoe is quite dense and I could go on and on, but I'll resist the urge and stay on topic. I have not seen any discussion regarding the use of the Melfi scenes in Kennedy and Heidi. 1 concept that pushed me into this trance-like state: Chase placed two Melfi scenes within the first half of the episode, and he filmed them with similar camera work and similar language. Yes, we can see that the first session was Tony's dream, and the second session real. Nevertheless, it confused me; even Tony's language was nearly identical in both sessions. "I've killed my friends before," Tony admits in the dream session. And in the real session, "I know some of my friends have been killed." (Sorry, the quotes are not completely accurate).

But what the hell is Chase saying? While we can study the series in its entirety, we can also learn so much from the 6A and 6B, on their own.

What is life? What is our purpose or do we not have one? Who am I? Where am I going? Tony asks as he briefly comes out of his coma. These questions are, to me, the most important issues for David Chase. I don't know what Chases's formal education is, philosohy, sociology, film? Not that it matters.
Chase has mastered his medium and uses it to get out the message. What is the message? I don't know and I wonder if Chase knows.

Chase seems to know what questions need answering. In a session with Melfi, Tony explains that he's not sure what he saw while on peyote. But he is sure that it was something. Something else is out there, but Tony doesn't know what. I think that is close to Chase's thoughts on the universe.

These are such universal questions, the basis for Church, Temple, etc. But I personally do not believe religion has the answers. I wished David Chase did have the answers. I almost wanted to finish MIA with a Chase statement on what life is. But, that's a personal wish on my part, not a fault of writing or directing.

The final cut to black. Is it death? or is it Tony and Carmella finally accepting that it's time to drop Meadow off the bus -- and perhaps that had been Tony's mission. Perhaps, he played his part on earth, and now it's the next generation's time. Thank you, hopefully I didn't ramble. I really look forward to any responses. Thanks.

Jonathan

[Garth]

Great first post, Jonathan. Very interesting stuff! Welcome to the board!

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

I concur, Jonathan. Great post, and welcome.:icon_biggrin:

[badabellisima]

Hi Jonathan!

re- two melfi visits: i think first one brought to Tony's conciousness that he indeed did kill friends. He allowed his dream to inform himself. He listened to his dream. He remembered his dream. This is a key point, because: -- So when he had the 2nd session, he was capable of feeling guilty about it- enough to 'lie' or whitewash it with an acknowledgemnt that 'friends got killed' (he just couldn't bring himself to admit to Melfi that he himself had a part in it). However, he is on the way to being able to get to that point (may not ever get there...), and is now even in the ball park for being able to be sorry and repent for it. Before, he was still in such denial, he wasn't even admitting his part in it, imo.

Re religion- i think your'e right, it doesn't imo always have the answers, but imo, may be a vehicle to finding them if you're into looking for them...As is therapy, to a point ( a vehicle for finding answers). Tony avails himself of both vehicles, imho.:smile:

[SilvioMancini]

Also that Melfi dream\real life session plays into the youshcelson theory about sociapaths. They use therapy to rationalize heinous acts. So the dream therapy before therapy shows that Tony's therapy has indeed only made him a better killer because he is in total denial in order to function without panic attack. Which also is an interesting thing too. Tony has no Panic attack in all of season six. Yet his behavior never fully changes. Which is why IMO "I get it!" means he doesnt have to feel guilty about his murdering. There is no morality to the universe. He can do whatever he wants and God isnt going to punish him. He finally gets the thing that caused his panic attacks. He cant question the morality of his behavior. No one can not even Carmella without destroying "this thing of ours". Even we the viewer have been sucked into either wanting to see Tony get whacked or see Tony blaze out Scarface style. We have rationalized his sociopathic behavior as well. We sometimes cheer it on! His panic attacks seemed attached to anxiety around his morality when it meets up against his family's own version. His father was even more sick in the head than Tony IMO, his mother and sister Janice too. But those folks didnt always cause the attacks. Meadow and her mixed race boyfriend, the lunch meat, the pinky getting cut off, all speak to anxiety about his morality. Maybe Im way off here but I think Im getting at something.........

[richieaprile]

Also that Melfi dream\real life session plays into the youshcelson theory about sociapaths. They use therapy to rationalize heinous acts. So the dream therapy before therapy shows that Tony's therapy has indeed only made him a better killer because he is in total denial in order to function without panic attack. Which also is an interesting thing too. Tony has no Panic attack in all of season six. Yet his behavior never fully changes. Which is why IMO "I get it!" means he doesnt have to feel guilty about his murdering. There is no morality to the universe. He can do whatever he wants and God isnt going to punish him. He finally gets the thing that caused his panic attacks. He cant question the morality of his behavior. No one can not even Carmella without destroying "this thing of ours". Even we the viewer have been sucked into either wanting to see Tony get whacked or see Tony blaze out Scarface style. We have rationalized his sociopathic behavior as well. We sometimes cheer it on! His panic attacks seemed attached to anxiety around his morality when it meets up against his family's own version. His father was even more sick in the head than Tony IMO, his mother and sister Janice too. But those folks didnt always cause the attacks. Meadow and her mixed race boyfriend, the lunch meat, the pinky getting cut off, all speak to anxiety about his morality. Maybe Im way off here but I think Im getting at something......

No, I don't think you're way off. I think you're exactly right. Chase publicly has shown his disgust with fans for loving Tony (and he has a rant about that in that long interview he did). What he did in the last few seasons (and especially the last few episodes) is shove our faces in the fact that we cheered for him. Tony's acts grew more despicable. Panic attacks became less and less frequent. Tony was always able to compartmentalize his good and bad side. When that bubble burst, he would have a panic attack. In the final season there were no panic attacks. Vegas was the moral end for Tony. He killed Chris, had no remorse and his gambling luck changed for good. Why should Tony feel guilty?? There are no moral rules or codes. If there was, his luck would continue to get worse. Instead, it gets better. This is a guy who survived a gun shot wound ("Im up..way up") and then survives a horrific car crash. Tony is an immortal in Vegas. Not even Phil can beat him. This is the uber-Tony or "Super" Tony soaked in nihilism. So does his son's attempt at suicide bring him back? yes, for a little bit. However, he is quickly back to calling A.J. "a wimp" for trying to kill himself and blames AJ on Carmela instead of (as the Monks say) "taking responsibility". Tony's actions then accidentally get two innocent people killed (Phil's goomar and her husband) and not a word of remorse from him. Dr. Melfi finally "got it" and dumped him.

Tony Soprano is about the complexities of the human condition in all it's glory. A man who truly loved his family and even strived to do the right thing. However, that was never enough for Tony to be worthy of redemption. He failed every moral obstacle that was in front of him. Once Vegas hit he was as far from Kevin Finnerty as he'll ever be. Tony is now purely "death in life". The show might as well have ended with "Kennedy and Heidi".

[badabellisima]

...Tony Soprano is about the complexities of the human condition in all it's glory. A man who truly loved his family and even strived to do the right thing. However, that was never enough for Tony to be worthy of redemption. He failed every moral obstacle that was in front of him. Once Vegas hit he was as far from Kevin Finnerty as he'll ever be. Tony is now purely "death in life". The show might as well have ended with "Kennedy and Heidi".


..."However, that was never enough for Tony to be worthy of redemption."

Tony may not be worthy of redemption, but who is? We all have the option of redemption whether we are worthy or not, and imo, most of us aren't "worthy", but are offered the gift and grace of it anyway. Whether Tony accepts it or not, imho, is the question...which i don't think Chase fully concludes within the series.

"...The show might as well have ended with "Kennedy and Heidi"

And re your point about how the show might as well have ended with "Heidi and Kennedy", Well, i have to say imo, i could not disagree with you more.