Hmm, more gay overtones in this ep.

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

All the speculation I participated in about gay subtext in "Rat Pack" was still just rampant speculation. But this week I REALLY got the feeling that we're being prepped for some type of gay storyline/plot point in the future.

First there was the re-emergence of the Weggler (Wiggler?) character, who in ep 12 last year assigned "Billy Budd" and "Death in Venice" to AJ's reading class and was therefore presumed to be gay (based on the homosexual themes in both books). Tonight we learned that he is not gay, not only from his revelation of a past marriage but from his subtly demonstrated romantic interest in Carm.

If we needed confirmation of what went through Tony's mind in "Rat Pack" when he entered Satriale's and saw Tony B practically mounting Vito from behind, we got it tonight from the closeup on Tony's face when Feech made the joke that Tony B gave his parole officer a "massage" when he came to do a random house check. Tony S definitely wasn't laughing, and you could tell he was momentarily considering whether his cousing might be gay.

Most telling and shocking, frankly, was Tony's out-of-the-blue reaction to AJ after the wild night out. Instead of just suspecting the usual teen mischief -- drugs, drinking, fornication, vandalism, stealing, wild driving, etc., that Carm clearly suspected -- he practically accuses AJ of being gay. "If you've got any sexual proclivities with that teacher or something, now's the time to tell us!" Then he followed with some line about drugs and "weird sex". The almost dumfounded looks on the faces of both Carm and AJ reinforce the non-sequitir nature of Tony's question.

At this point, it's probably time to officially launch gaydar on this storyline to keep track of future blips.

</p>

[wizdog]

It sounds weird, since AJ was so active in getting sex with his rich girlfriend (I can't recall her name)
Had not Carm told about that to Tony?
As I can remember it this thing [the smallest kid being in love/being loved] was always an event in every family I had known including mine. A great subject for a late night talk in the parents bed which we got to see many times.

This is clearly something that Camr and Tony shpuld have had discussed in bed <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

</p>

[SofiaGiovanna]

Melfi

Agreed, certainly. But AJ did look really androgynous with no eyebrows....sort of like David Bowie circa Aladdin Sane or something. And Tony knows that AJ is NOT a tough kid...he didn't have to hear him call "MOMMMIEEE" when the bear was in the backyard, he already knew it...but then, Tony was not the toughest teen either, we hear from Feech.

I find it interesting that Tony did not flip out worse than he did...this was the same guy who threatened to send AJ to military school.

</p>

[ObservingEgo]

Fly, I shall pay close attention to your speculative hunches regarding gaiety. I think that when AJ and his friends were "partying" in the motel room, some "toys" were brought out, no? I reduced their antics more to male adolescent sex play...experimentation, if you will.

My sense is that we are drifting toward a less identifiable and recognizable paraphilic sexuality, manifested possibly by Tony B, the teacher or maybe even in the uninteresting character of AJ. Garden variety homosexuality in one of his characters may not be as textured and adequately elegant for Chase at this point.

In either event, this development will be interesting and I think challenge some viewers' beliefs...about stereotypically macho guys...especially "those guys."

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I reduced their antics more to male adolescent sex play<hr></blockquote>

Oh I absolutely don't believe there was anything gay or abnormal about what we saw in the motel room, stupidly funny and at times revolting as it was. The writing on the butt "insert wood", the fact that AJ was in his drawers, I took nothing gay from that.

What I found interesting was Tony's unfounded worry that AJ might be gay. I just don't know how you go from shaved eyebrows and a trashed motel room (and that's IF Tony even learned of that) to thinking Mr. Wiggler taught him a thing or two about "inserting the wood." His son is a wuss, but he's never evidenced homosexualtiy. Quite the opposite, in fact, what with his constant cavorting last season with Devin. So Tony, like the show, seems to be getting particularly gay conscious, and I think there has to be a reason for that.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Garden variety homosexuality in one of his characters may not be as textured and adequately elegant for Chase at this point.<hr></blockquote>

I agree that Chase loves layers and depth, but I don't think he would avoid doing a gay storyline just because it's less exotic than a storyline about true sexual deviancy. That said, IMO homosexuality in a mob context would be anything but "garden variety", LOL. It seems to me a classic vehicle for the kind of conflict that Chase relishes most: inner conflict, psychological conflict (which, in the end, is what all conflict is, I suppose). At this point, the mob is one of the few associations where political correctness and progressive social thought holds very little sway and where persecution of a gay member would be not only possible but mandatory. That means the mob is one of the few contexts where a gay man would still engage in the kind of self delusion, denial, subterfuge, and repression (all generating extreme internal, psychological conflicts) that gays can now avoid in most other contexts.

So I see it as still a very ripe subject matter for treament by a writer with Chase's genius for subtext, symbolism, subtlety, and character psychology.

</p>

[thegame1999]

You better chill with this 'gay overtones' thing; its not cool.

</p>

[duck44]

Yeah drop the gay stuff . You FA####!!!!



duck44, please read the terms of use and posting etiquette tips in the welcome forum and conform your posts to those standards in the future.

FlyOnMelfisWall

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub132.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flyonm elfiswall>FlyOnMelfisWall</A> at: 3/29/04 8:41 pm

[shazahaha]

great.

I definately think there is validity to it (obviously), but it's almost too outrageous to believe.

</p>

[moth78]

"You better chill with this 'gay overtones' thing; its not cool."
"Yeah drop the gay stuff . You FA####!!!! "

Yeah, or maybe you can get over it and join the twenty-first century.

</p>

[Soda drink]

I just dont see the gay stuff anywhere? The massage remark is more of jab at Tony B's profession rather than his closed homosexuality. Us guys always make jokes about gay this and gay that but I just dont see any validation to any real gay overtones. Based on what ee've seen so far...it is baffling to me how you guys can up with these conclusions.....too much hugging? I read somewhere on this forum where someone said something like that and thus came with the conclusion that Tony B must be gay.

Maybe your right and maybe your not, but I think your reading way too much into this.

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>You better chill with this 'gay overtones' thing; its not cool. <hr></blockquote>

thegame1999, how can I say this politely. Given my impressions about a significant segment of the Sopranos audience demographic, I'm not surprised that some would feel absolutely threatened and outraged at the possibilitiy of a gay character permeating the hyper-mahco, Neanderthal world of LCN. But that outrage is entirely THEIR problem, and its manifestation in flaming or cursing or epithets (e.g., duck44) is no more proper here than that issuing from any other motive or cause.

I have no intention of curtailing my analysis and speculation about what I see transpiring on my screen every week simply because some people can't handle the idea that it just might be correct -- that the admired sociopaths, misogynists, gay-haters, and racial bigots populating BadaBing's back room might be on the verge of confronting their bigotry up close. I didn't set out this week looking for more gay awareness on the Sopranos, but I can't ignore that I saw it in three separate scenes and that this could portend the emergence of an actual story element.

If the mere speculation about this is too provocative to handle for some folks, I suggest they skip it entirely. Afterall, they'll want to save some of their homo-hating diatribes for David Chase, should the storyline actually head that direction.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub132.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flyonm elfiswall>FlyOnMelfisWall</A> at: 3/30/04 1:43 am

[ObservingEgo]

Fly, I have been thinking about this theme during the afternoon. You are right. Tony B. has been up the river for 15 years. In these types of institutionalized settings, characterologically heterosexual people do form homosexual liaisons...for many reasons (protection, survival, and yes to satisfy the libido). So, if Tony B. had "crossed over," he would indeed have this issue to deal with upon his release and re-entrance into society and more difficultly into mob society.

Again, this theme will challenge/pique many viewers beliefs regarding the mythological notion of the monolithically heterosexual male...as evidenced by replies to this post.

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Soda drink, first let me commend you on taking the appropriate tact of expressing disagreement with the speculation in the post. You stuck to the topic.

Second, let me remind you that it is still very much just speculation. I certainly have not "concluded" that Tony B is gay. I've merely pointed out an emerging confluence of subtextual and subtle cues that MAY portend a gay element in the Tony B storyline/character, among them:

1] Uncle Jr.s remark that Tony B is "a f------ weirdo, if you as me"

2] the nude picture of Tony S and Tony B as babies, which prompted Tony S's remark comparing the sizes of their "cannolis"

3] the coincidence of Tony B's cellphone ringtone being "We Are the Champions" by Queen, a song described as a "gay anthem" (do a google search), written and performed by a group whose name is slang for a male homosexual and whose lead singer was a gay man that died of AIDS

4] the whole massage thing, an odd career choice, to say the least, for a former mob guy, perhaps suggesting a sublimated desire for intimate contact with men

5] Tony S's demeanor when he enters Satriale's and sees Tony B practically on top of Vito

6] the deliberate closeup reaction shot of Tony S that clearly showed him NOT laughing at the joke about Tony B massaging his parole officer while everyone else did

7] a heightened consciousness by Tony and by the show in general about "gayness", as manifest in Tony's totally unfounded speculation about AJ being gay, by Tony's remark that the ranger was "light in the Timberlands" and Carmela's comeback that "it's always a gay thing" with Tony

8] the destruction of one stereotype about a man everyone presumed was gay (Wegler) but who in fact is not, which fairly begs the question of whether the opposite stereotype will be destroyed later from the other direction

Notably, this board is FILLED daily with people speculating about "who will be whacked" this week and "how will it end for Tony" after season 6 and "will Chris fall off the wagon" and a thousand other speculative matters. I find it very telling that the only time I've heard someone being basically told to "shut up" about speculation is when it involves homosexuality in Tony's circle of macho men.

</p>

[aalleyne]

Does anyone remember how the show used to tacitly imply that Ralph Cifaretto might, just MIGHT be a closet homosexual or bisexual? For example:

--In the Season 3 episode "University" (when Ralph ultimately kills the stripper Tracee), Ralph approaches Gigi Cestone, kisses him on the lips, makes a wisecrack about Gigi's kid brother giving Tony head, then says, "You know, I have a cousin who's a f-g."

--Later in the 3rd season, Jackie Jr. tells his partner in crime, Dino Zerilli, "F--k Ralph . . . I think he's a secret f-g or something!"

--And of course, in the 4th season, we all remember how Ralph would rarely actually have normal sexual intercourse with his goomar Valentina, opting instead for all kinds of hilariously kinky forms of sexual gratification, usually ending in Ralph "taking care of his own needs", as Tony put it to Dr. Melfi. And who could forget him having Janice use the vibrator on him and pretend to "pimp him out"? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">

--And remember that in one of the episodes after Tony whacked Ralph, when everyone was wondering where he was, Paulie (ever Ralph's nemesis) made some snide remark about Ralph being at some gay-man's social event--I don't remember exactly how the joke went . . .

Just saying, the whole issue of closet homosexuality (or bisexuality, or mere dabbling in what used to be called "the love that dares not speak its name") on The Sopranos started a good while before that discussion about Billy Budd. And it related directly to a key mobster character on the show, too.

</p>

[stvrap79]

Anyone remember that scene in Tony's bachelor pad? When AJ told everyone that they would be "surprised" about is sexual history? Tony did seem a little shocked....

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>In these types of institutionalized settings, characterologically heterosexual people do form homosexual liaisons...for many reasons <hr></blockquote>

OE, this was something I wondered about too, whether if it comes to pass it will be only about something that happened in the "can". But then we heard Angelo Garepe say he knew Tony B in prison pretty well. Whether or not Angelo was telling the truth, I'm thinking the information network in prison would almost make it suicidal for a mob guy to risk it. There were a lot of mob cronies in there too, and I don't think any of them would have been very pleased if one of their own "flipped", if you catch my drift.

But I suspect his imprisonment will figure in some how, at least psychologically, if all this is really coming.

aalleyne, several others have agreed with your observations, feeling that if there was ever going to be a closet gay story, it would have been with Ralph.

stvrap79, I don't think anything unusual was implied in the AJ/Tony exchange about "dutch ovens". Artie defined the term to be when you are in bed with a "woman" and force her head under the covers. Tony was teasing that AJ would have no appreciation for the gag because you first have to be in bed with a woman, implying that AJ was a virgin. AJ then takes the opportunity to correct (or bluff) his father on that point, telling him "you'd be surprised", meaning he HAD been in bed with a woman. It was all very standard male image stuff, and, virgin or not, I've seen no reason to believe AJ isn't 100% heterosexual.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub132.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flyonm elfiswall>FlyOnMelfisWall</A> at: 3/30/04 2:01 am

[aalleyne]

Remember in the episode "Eloise" in Season 4, when they had the discussion about Billy Budd? Remember AJ's comment, "I didn't even know they had f-gs back then!" And the look of undisguised revulsion on his face when Meadow described the captain's description of Billy Budd as . . . something to do with buttocks like Michaelangelo's David or something to that effect?

No, AJ doesn't strike me as the type who's on that side of the fence.

</p>