Final Ep: Scene-by-Scene Analysis [Archive]

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badabellisima

October 9th, 2007, 07:12 PM

New Thread: Scene-by-Scene Analysis of the Final Episode

In response to posts quoted below, this thread is being started to chronologically discuss the individual scenes of the Final Episode, scene-by-scene, in an un-biased manner without pre-conceived conclusions, to the best of our ability.

Re: Opening 5-Minutes Scene of the Final Episode

The opening shot is from above as Tony is lying, eyes closed on the bed. The alarm clock comes on with chapel like music. Tony stirs and opens his eyes…

Here's the YouTube Link to Vanilla Fudge playing this song, 1967-68:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JWNfhW2eHk

(Here is a legal Rhapsody link to the Vanilla Fudge version of "You Keep Me Hangin' On..." that is played while Tony is awakening):

"You Keep Me Hangin' On" - Vanilla Fudge (http://play.rhapsody.com/vanillafudge/psychedelicsundaethebestofvanillafudge/youkeepmehanginon) - Played when Tony wakes up; Dante drives Tony to his family; Phil fills up

I would like to propose a project for somebody to do, that isn't me because I am too busy/lazy, and I don't actually have a copy of the final episode.
I lecture Economics at a University in New Zealand, so I am familiar with what makes good research. Good research is NOT "I have formed this opinion (ie Tony gets shot in the head), and now I am going to look for evidence to support my theory". Any statitician can can manipulate/collect data to support a theory, whether that theory is actually correct or not. Research of that nature would never be accepted into an academic journal, or an academic conference. Good research presents ALL the data/information without prejudice, then presents a theory based on the evidence. Good research will also admit to the information/data that may refute their theory.

In response to Chase's comment which basically said it was all there in the last EPISODE, you just need to look carefully, I would like to see a "thesis" which summarises/describes every scene in the last episode without a preformed view. So each scene is analysed from the "what is this scene saying" point of view rather than the "what in this scene supports my view, and if there is nothing I won't talk about this scene" point of view. That way there would be much more discussion about overarching themes, rather than just did Tony die in Holstens (however, as a byproduct, many may find the answer to that question as a result of a scene by scene analysis).

I realise it may be unrealistic for one person to do this massive analysis. May as a group, maybe we could just attack each scene in order on here, giving our takes on each scene without prejudice?

What do you think? Does anyone have an interest in doing this, or is it in the too hard basket?

Here's an example of what I mean, although my scene description will be very brief as I am working from memory:

The opening shot is from above as Tony is lying, eyes closed on the bed. The alarm clock comes on with chapel like music. Tony stirs and opens his eyes blah blah blah

This could be symbolic of Tony's approaching death, as he is lying in a position similar to a body in a coffin. The music also sounds like chapel music. It is also the same shot of Tony when he was shot by Junior. However, it could also be symbolic of Tony "rising from the dead". One theme of series 6 has been will Tony see the light and mend his ways. Is this scene indicitive of Tony's reawakening? blah blah

...
…Finally, on the one scene you mentioned, I still maintain that this was a wink from Chase given how everyone assumed Tony might be near to death after The Second Coming. We are perhaps meant to think Tony is dead as the final episode begins and then, blam, we are brought back to reality. I think the same can be said about the meeting with Agent Harris. Where at first you think Tony may be flipping, he in fact has flipped Harris. It's a bit of slight of hand, if you will. But I will certainly grant the theme of death is all over the place in not just the final episode, but so too the entire final season (Think Cold Stones among many episodes.)

Did anyone else have the feeling in the first scene that it was a dream? At the end of the last episode Tony was in a bleak empty room with no decorations or bedding. When this episode began, the room was nicely painted with frills and fancy sheets. Was it just because it was dark last week that the room looked so drab or had time elapsed and the safehouse had been visited by the Queer Eye guys? And then, in the next scene, it was snowing. It made me think another Test Dream was afoot.

Detective Hunt

October 9th, 2007, 09:49 PM

Excellent work, bada! But let us not forget that the "chapel" music is also the opening strains to "You Keep Me Hanging On" (Don't recall by who) which then takes over as he rises.

Given Chase's use of music, this surely must be part of the full effect I'd think.

badabellisima

October 10th, 2007, 12:04 AM

oops- forgot to put the link to the music in- i wanted to be sure it was a legal link, so i have now edited/put in a YuTube and Rhapsody link above...It begins with the Vanilla Fudge organ music before turning into rock music as Tony arises from the bed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JWNfhW2eHk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JWNfhW2eHk)

Here are some lyrics, but they change with different versions of the Vanilla Fudge song...
Written by Brian Holland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Holland), Lamont Dozier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamont_Dozier), and Edward Holland, Jr. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Holland%2C_Jr.)

Set me free why doncha babe
Get out of my life why doncha babe
Cuz you don't really love (want) me, you just keep me hangin' on
You don't really (don’t) need me but ya (just) keep me hangin' on

Why do ya keep a'comin' around playin' with my heart
Why doncha get out of my life and let me (try to) make a new start
Let me get over you the way you've gotten over me-hey

Set me free why doncha babe
Let me be why doncha babe
Cuz you don't really love me, you just keep me hangin' on
Now you don't really want me, you just keep me hangin' on

You say although (when) we broke up you still wanna be just friends
But how can we still be friends when seein' you only breaks my heart again

SPOKEN: Whoa-oh-oh

Set me free why doncha babe (Whoa-oh-oh)
Get out of my life why doncha babe (Whoa-oh-oh)
Set me free why doncha babe
Get out of my life why doncha babe

You claim you still care for me but your heart and soul need to be free
And now that you've got your freedom you want to still hold on to me
You don't want me or yourself so let me find somebody else, hey hey

Why doncha be a man about it and set me free
Now you don't care a thing about me, you're just usin' me-go on
Get out, get out of my life and let me sleep at night

FADE: You don't really love me, you just...

Universal Polymath

October 10th, 2007, 12:33 PM

Wow, awesome idea, badabellisima! I don't have the time to contribute right now (I'm in class right now), but I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes (hopefully somewhere!).

badabellisima

October 10th, 2007, 01:01 PM

This idea really comes from Kiwifan, who was also too busy right now- so we'll just have to work at it as best we can...

btw- different posters way back had noted the placement of Tony's bed in this scene: - in the coffin position (feet towards the door). Per Chinese Feng Shui and other philosophies, --the worst place for the bed is right in front of the door with your feet facing toward it. Labeled the “coffin position,” because the dead tend to be moved feet first, and placing your bed in such a manner promotes the wrong type of energy, or bad luck, insomnia or unrestful sleep, etc…

But one of the cures for this alteration of chi around the house? Get a household pet! (Lucky Color orange cat!)

I can't believe putting Tony's bed in that position was an accident. And as usual, Tony seems to also have a scene or action that may counteract whatever symbolism that may have implied. But again, trying to keep the focus on just that scene, it does seem that Tony did not have a very good night's sleep.

KiwiFan

October 10th, 2007, 07:30 PM

So can we assume from the song playing that it refers to Tony's relationship with the mafia? Get out, get out of my life, and let me sleep at night?

badabellisima

October 10th, 2007, 07:53 PM

Hmmm? my first reaction was more like, was Tony resisting a higher moral calling to turn to the good side? Like when you know what the right thing to do is, and you can't sleep over it until you do the right thing, and then you wonder- now why didn't i see that in the first place? If he woke up on the wrong side of the bed, so-to-speak, then one cure would be to get on the right side of the bed! Take charge and Turn it around. But now that i've looked up the lyrics and reconsidered after your input, i think you are right. Really sheds more light on how this whole episode kicked off.

Detective Hunt

October 10th, 2007, 10:51 PM

I guess I take more from the song title itself - "you keep me hanging on" - that's where I got my thoughts re: the red herrings. I took it as a sly joke given that it starts with funeral music and then turns to the actual song.

badabellisima

October 11th, 2007, 05:11 PM

Here's a link to film.com that has a series of good articles on the Music of the Sopranos by Drake Lelane. This article is specifically about "You Keep Me Hangin' On" as it relates to the opening scene of the final ep and other songs, etc. of the final ep.

http://www.film.com/tv/story/musiconthesopranoskeepmehangingon/15052470

badabellisima

October 13th, 2007, 05:47 PM

Anyone have any screen captures of the opening scene? A picture is worth a thousand words, and will be useful for this type of thread. i saw one elsewhere from the "coffin" view looking out towards the doorway from Tony's POV in bed, but now i can't find it.

badabellisima

October 14th, 2007, 09:30 PM

just re-watched this opening scene (Comcast-On Demand), and noticed how Tony has a sizeable chain around his neck thats kind of tangled from his front neck and hangs down his back as he rises up from the bed. Can't help but think of the chains that bind him. When he looks over to his left at the gun (that Bobby gave him) at his side, he just looks so weary of the burden of having to have it. Then its "another day at the office(!)" so to speak, when the scene cuts to him and Paulie in the Steinholz Beverages van. The rock music changes over to oldies...

richieaprile

October 14th, 2007, 10:06 PM

Bada,
Just noticed this from the music section of the final episode on Hbo.com

Tony wakes up; Dante drives Tony to his family; Phil fills up.
Song: You Keep Me Hangin' On
Artist: Vanilla Fudge

So it seems the same song is playing during all 3 of these scenes during the finale!. Very interesting and not sure what it all means. I dont think this has been mentioned before. I think Chase has occasionally used the same song over multiple scenes in an episode before. Not sure if he has ever used the same song 3 times in the same episode.

badabellisima

October 14th, 2007, 10:23 PM

Previous Scene: Morning. Tony has just arisen from his bed at the safe house and looks wearily at the gun beside him and the door ahead of him… the camera cuts to…

Next Scene: Tony and Paulie wait for Agent Harris at the airport …

It is now night. The weather is very stormy, blustery/windy with snow/sleet? We see from above a view of the back of the black Steinholz Beverage Van, where Tony and Paulie are waiting in the dark in a parking lot, facing a runway at the airport. The music has abruptly shifted (from the rock portion of Vanilla Fudge’s “You keep Me Hangin’ On” in the previous scene) to “Denise” by Randy and the Rainbows. We hear the doo wop lyrics crooning… “I’m (so?) in love with youoooo…”. While Tony and Paulie engage in dialogue, an airplane comes overhead (from the back of the van towards the front, as if Tony and Paulie were the pilots heading in for a landing). The loud roar of the jet engines cuts off the song as it descends rapidly for its landing, the wings rocking left and right, showing the port (red) and starboard (green) lights on the wings against the black night…

Meanwhile, Paulie complains that they have been waiting over half an hour… Tony tells him to just enjoy the music. They see headlights flash from a car that’s arrived across the parking lot. The lights shine on Tony’s face as he sits in the van. Tony gets out of the van and approaches the car from a distance (we see him from behind him). The wind is obviously blowing very hard, and Tony's overcoat is flapping as he holds himself against the snowy, blizzardy wind, but heading straight into it. He gets in the vehicle- its Agent Harris in the driver’s seat.

(I’ll have to fill in dialogue and more details later- I’m outta time right now!- anyone else feel free to transcribe in dialogue if you have time--)

Music of next scene: “Denise”, around 1963, Randy and the Rainbows

Listen Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahbhS4bvkvTk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahbhS4bvkvTk)

Lyrics:

“Denise”, around 1963, Randy and the Rainbows

Oh Denise, shooby doo
I'm in love with you, Denise shooby doo
I'm in love with you, Denise shooby doo
I'm in love with you

Denise, Denise, oh, with your eyes so blue
Denise, Denise, I've got a crush on you
Denise, Denise, I'm so in love with you

Oh, when we walk, it seems like paradise
And when we talk, it always feels so nice
Denise, Denise, I'm so in love with you

Your my dream and I'm in heaven
Every time I look at you
When you smile it's like a dream
And I'm so lucky 'cause I found a girl like you

Oh Denise, shooby doo
I'm in love with you, Denise shooby doo
I'm in love with you, Denise shooby doo
I'm in love with you

Denise, Denise, oh won't you hold me tight
Denise, Denise, oh can we kiss goodnight
Denise, Denise, I'm so in love with you

Oh Denise, shooby doo
I'm in love with you, Denise shooby doo
I'm in love with you, Denise shooby doo
I'm in love with you, Denise

badabellisima

October 14th, 2007, 10:49 PM

Bada,
Just noticed this from the music section of the final episode on Hbo.com

So it seems the same song is playing during all 3 of these scenes during the finale!. Very interesting and not sure what it all means. I dont think this has been mentioned before. I think Chase has occasionally used the same song over multiple scenes in an episode before. Not sure if he has ever used the same song 3 times in the same episode.
Yeah, some people have picked up on that (note the film.com link i posted earlier and also note the diagetic discussion- it came from the Lelane article). Where "You keep me hanging on" leaves off (after Tony rises in the opening scene and "Denise" picks up) is just about the point where it turns from organ-type music to the more classic garage band rock. - Well, later, when Tony and Dante are approaching the house where Carmella is staying by the bay, the song picks up at that more rock-like point in the song, but it seems to be actually playing on the van's radio or CD player- not used as background music. i think its interesting, considering the diagetic discussion- but i hadn't planned to bring it up yet, since this thread is going chronologically scene-by-scene. Its hard to stay in the threads though, because its all so interesting and all interlinks! There are definitely brilliant music people out there who really know about this stuff, and can shed more light on it than i possibly could, so i'm just trying to show the song lyrics and timing and hopefully they'll chime in. Of course the music thread is the best place for some of this discussion, and previous posts there relate to the topic...

richieaprile

October 14th, 2007, 11:06 PM

I believe David Chase's wife is named Denise. It may just him being a grateful husband.

You may have nailed it!. Chase also has his real life daughter show up in the episode (the return of Hunter!). I believe she is David and Denise's only child.

A loving tribute to them?, a subtle thank you for being there through the long hours that David Chase worked during the run of the show?

badabellisima

October 15th, 2007, 12:53 PM

Wow- thats very interesting about Denise- especially since a good part of this scene relates to Agent Harris' marriage trouble (arguing with his wife on the cell about how he's late again)- which then leads later to his tryst (?) with the other agent and leads to the revealing of Phil's location on Long Island, etc. Tony shows sympathy towards Harris' troubles on the homefront and encourages him to get back to it, etc. There was alot to this scene, i really need to get the dialogue in here, but i have to get back to work-sorry!

badabellisima

October 27th, 2007, 07:26 PM

Briefly, other points made during this scene: Tony discusses a false alarm terrorism tip Harris has just been working on, then tells Harris about how AJ is obsessed with this stuff. Harris takes a call from his wife, who is obviously annoyed that he isn't coming home right away and how his dinner is cold. They exchange info about the arabs at the Bing who have money in the Midland Bank. Tony tries to get Harris to talk to his contact (who Tony assumes is a guy) and get info for Tony on inside info on Phil's whereabouts. Agent Harris gets annoyed, looks pissed. They part with no conclusive arrangement for further information exchange.

BTW, i haven't given up on this thread, but by its nature, will take a long time to fully unravel. i don't have time to detail the dialogue of this particular scene right now, so if anyone wants to add to it, please do. Starting next week, i may just summarize this scene, then start the music/lyrics transcript and brief summary of the next scene...

richieaprile

October 27th, 2007, 08:14 PM

I think the Harris call to his wife sets up him with his mistress later on. I think it really starts to link Tony and Agent Harris. Both have tenuous marital situations and are now cheating on their wives. Harris becoming Tony in a way. Later revealing Phil's whereabouts and cheering for Tony when Phil is popped. Also wanted to point out how great Servito is in that scene. This was really his episode to shine. Too bad it was the last one!

harpo

October 27th, 2007, 08:21 PM

I think the finale (and last season in general) paints the threats Tony and Phil face (let themselves face?) as akin to the threats America faces. I myself think the cut from Phil getting killed to terrorists' propoganda tape suggests as much (while also being organic to Harris's work). As for whether Chase means to suggest the same corrupt forces that endanger Tony and Phil are related to ones that endanger the country, I think there's a lot in the finale (and perhaps in his Emmy speech) to suggest he does. The kid afraid of terrorism is the same one who rails against the decision to invade Iraq and says we need to cut our dependence on foreign oil.

harpo

October 27th, 2007, 08:27 PM

Also wanted to point out how great Servito is in that scene. This was really his episode to shine. Too bad it was the last one!
In general, I think Chase got great performances out of his actors in this episode. No matter your interpretation, MOG, who to my knowledge isn't all that experienced, was really good in his brief/eternal role.

richieaprile

October 27th, 2007, 08:37 PM

As far as the terrorism talk in the scene, I feel like I read somewhere Chase say he thought it felt real that we and Tony never know whether Amad and Jamali are really terrorists or what's going on, that this is what it's like to live in the U.S. in the age of terrorism. I do have to say I think the finale (and last season in general) paints the threats Tony and Phil face (let themselves face?) as akin to the threats America faces. I myself think the cut from Phil getting killed to terrorists' propoganda tape suggests as much (while also being organic to Harris's work). As for whether Chase means to suggest the same corrupt forces that endanger Tony and Phil are related to ones that endanger the country, I think there's a lot in the finale (and perhaps in his Emmy speech) to maybe suggest he does. The kid afraid of terrorism is the same one who rails against the decision to invade Iraq and says we need to cut our dependence on foreign oil.

Chase did say that in the interview in the NJ Star Ledger the day after the finale (about Amad and Jamali). I think people were expecting the terrorist angle to play into the finale but it was clearly orchestrated so that Harris and Tony became friends which would pay off later when Harris tells Tony Phil's whereabout's. "Blue Comet" also has a scene of AJ watching TV which has a news report about the endless cycle of violence and war in Iraq which reflects the very same endless cycle in the NJ-NY war in that episode. AJ does seem like a mouthpiece for Chase when discussing political views. This should be interesting later on when we get to the scene where AJ tells Tony he wants to join the army.

badabellisima

October 27th, 2007, 09:17 PM

i kind of had the sense that Harris was able to go forward with giving Phil's location to Tony because (it might be insinuated) it turned out to be indeed true after investigation that the money funneled thru Midland's Bank was going to terrorism somehow. i mean- Tony tried to bring it up in the car during this scene and Harris chided him for going too far. i got the idea Tony was implying: "If my tip turns out to be useful, Then you (Harris) owe me bigtime...". I don't think Haris would have given him the Phil tipoff unless the information turned out to be truly useful.

And about the transition by Harris over to being a cheater- very interesting point. i do think he had this tryst/affair going on for some time, since we've heard about the contact for awhile. ANd interesting about the mother-figure connection, and that clearly the contact was wearing the pants! (or not!). She was tough!

SilvioMancini

October 27th, 2007, 11:52 PM

anyone pick up on how noticible the wind was blowing in the scene where Tony walks to Harris' car? IT was deliberately exaggerated to remind of us of the wind carrying us quote IMO. I think it deserves to be mentioned in the description. Also, notice the odd camera shot of Tony walking towards the car from behind?

One final note, Paulie says something like "He said half an hour, its been an hour and a half already." and Tony says "Dont worry, he's coming. Just enjoy the song." And the music gets louder as the car approaches. In a strange way I think this is a funny scene, Tony telling Paulie to shut up and enjoy the song.. And what was Paulie thinking? Tony meeting up with the feds. He must have been a little worried to say the least.

SilvioMancini

October 28th, 2007, 01:39 AM

I am going to attempt to pick up where the last scene description left off ie the conversation b\w Tony and harris scene

badabellisima

October 28th, 2007, 12:45 PM

very good points- the wind is one of the most important and critical symbols in this whole show. Soon as i have a chance, i'll edit it into the scene description, and anything else you want. When we originally started this thread, it was initiated by kiwifan who was going to help sometimes, but i guess not now, so its great if everyone interested could fill in gaps.

The word "Wind" in the old hebrew language (ruach i think) is the same as something like the meaning for "spirit", and i was told once in a theology class that the word and meaning for holy spirit and wind are the same in a way, when used in old testament/torah type holy texts. As you and others have pointed it, other cultures also see the wind as a carrier of messages, blessings, perhaps harbinger of doom, ill wind blowing, etc.

Somehow at the time i first saw this scene, i didn't quite get an ominous feeling from this scary wind used here though. More like a sense of impending action, tension- but not necessarily death-like.

richieaprile

October 28th, 2007, 01:45 PM

Good catch on the wind in the scene, never noticed that before. The whole winter motif of the final few episodes is also continued here w/ the snow. It also links to a very snowy and windy scene in Little Italy w/ Butchie later on and the apparent deep freeze in the sit-down w/ NY. Not to mention dying trees and drained pools. Not sure if I have ever seen weather used like this by Chase as a continuing theme in the show before. A "chilling" vision to say the least.

Irishwiseguy

October 28th, 2007, 02:01 PM

A stark contrast to the lush trees in the very first episode.

SilvioMancini

October 28th, 2007, 07:18 PM

So true Irish guy. Never made that realisation. The pool was now empty, and the once lush trees from episode 1 were leafless and bare. Definite full circle connection.

In the spirit of what kiwi was trying to attempt, I will try to continue this thread with its original intent. Im going to start ASAP where bada left off. If no one picks up after me, than Ill keep doing more scenes. If anyone cares to jump in, of course, or if you have editing input please share. I think it would be a useful experience so I will do my best to complete it.

badabellisima

October 31st, 2007, 07:11 PM

Previous scene: Tony meeting with Agent Harris in the dark, scary, windy blizzard. Tony leaves the car to go back to Paulie in the Steinholz van. The camera cuts to...

Next Scene: Tony is being driven by Dante to the safe, but smelly, spec-house where Carm and the kids are staying by the shore.

Tony is in the Steinholz Beverage van, and the radio is playing (again) the Vanilla Fudge song from the opening scene of this last ep, (but its the rock part of the song, not the organ music part). Its not background music, but actually playing on the van's radio or CD player. (see diagetic use of music comments in the Lelane article, http://www.film.com/tv/story/musicon...ingon/15052470 (http://www.film.com/tv/story/musiconthesopranoskeepmehangingon/15052470)). It cuts off abruptly when Dante comes to a stop, headlights facing the little house, with the viewer seeing the drivers-side of the van.

Its daylight now, and the storm has passed.

Again (see first post in this thread), here's the YouTube Link to Vanilla Fudge playing this song:

"You Keep Me Hangin' On" from 1967-68:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JWNfhW2eHk

There are no lyrics sung here, just the rock instrumental playing...

Thanks in advance SilvioMancini for picking up this next scene...

richieaprile

November 1st, 2007, 04:03 PM

The scene seems pretty much expository to show us where Tony is going. There is a contrast w/ the weather as it is no longer snowing (Do we actually see sun in this scene?). I dont think there is any dialogue. I think the key thing is that we hear the song again. We will hear it one more time before the show is over (when Phil is killed). Should we wait until we get to that scene before all of us attempt to link the three scenes??

Detective Hunt

November 1st, 2007, 04:48 PM

I think we can at least see a trend in the editing that suggests with each that while it appears something big is about to happen, it then does not. Notice the way the camera looms on the door as Tony is about to enter the house and then - bam - it's just Carm and the kids.

So too with the previous scenes - Is Tony dead? No, just getting up. Then, who's this he's meeting with? Is Tony going to flip? And then, oh, it's just Agent Harris, pissed that Tony got him out of bed or some such to extract info from him.

I've always looked at the opening to this episode as a series of red herrings attempting to take the audience from the grand expectations of the previous episode(s) and then turn with each.

badabellisima

November 1st, 2007, 05:22 PM

i just had to revise the scene description after i re-watched it and realized that the van parked sideways to the viewer, and also that no lyrics to that song were sung- just the loud instrumental rock part heard from the van.

And richie, re connecting the three times the song is played- yeah, this has actually been posted on before (its also mentioned in the very first post of this thread in the song playlist, and you later repeated it), and this thread is supposed to be about the scene-by scene review, not so much about jumping ahead, so we can see what we can learn from it on that basis...However, maybe some insights about the songs played at this point will inform our understanding of that later scene, so i guess you just have to post with your best judgement that stays on topic!

Brief summary (i think SilMan will be detailing the dialogue soon):

When Tony comes into the house, right away he sees Meadow preparing to leave because she is really late meeting Patrick in the City. Tony and Carm discuss the smell of piss in the house. AJ and his girlfriend come down the stairs, she leaves, they all discuss the pending funeral arrangments for Bobby with the FBI presence. Meanwhile, all thru this scene,Tony is very deliberately peeling and eating an orange.

richieaprile

November 1st, 2007, 06:59 PM

Sil,
Please check out what it says on the van itself. I am pretty sure there is text, something to do w/ "storage".

badabellisima

November 1st, 2007, 10:18 PM

Per original scene summary, its the Steinholz Beverage van used for Tony's transportation (driven by Dante) throughout the episode.

badabellisima

November 2nd, 2007, 09:46 PM

DH, interesting points, yet so far in this episode, i haven't been getting the feeling that these scenes are red herrings, so much as just setting the stage. Like when Tony had that one scene in a previous old ep where at first we thought he could be having a heart attack, and then it turns out he was getting a BJ in his car! That was a funny fake-out, but not really a red herring. SO when this ep started with the fake-out of Tony appearing to be -- "passed out, asleep, dead,-sleeping in a coffin or what?" before his eyes opened, i just took it to mean one more time that we shouldn't jump to conclusions in this show ever.

Sure, suspense is building so far in the episode, but some of its from momentum from the previous ep, versus actually being created from the scenes by themselves so far.

When this particular scene starts off with the daylight and its obvious the storm has passed and we see Tony's family, i get the idea that Chase is using this scene to break the tension and control the rate that the tension is amping up.

Returning to family = Relief, happiness, better times, sunnier weather, hope for a better future. Perhaps a feeling most of us feel when we return home after a hard days work.

When Carm anxiously says "I've GOT to get home!" after the conversation about the smell of piss in the house, Tony says, "I'm workin' on it" while affectionately touching her chin in sympathy. IMO, This scene clearly is meant to contrast the tension lived at night, versus the lesser tension we feel when Tony's with his family in the daylight. Afterall, The day is the reason to bother getting thru the night. For anyone really, not just mobsters.

Now, if someone was doing a parody of this scene, instead of Vanilla Fudge music, they could play Debussy's "Afternoon of a Fawn" (think bambi strolling in a meadow during the springtime while a flute plays). Meanwhile, they next show Carmella thru a greased lens, greeting Tony at the door in high heels, and presenting him with a fresh plate of Zitti while wearing an apron,-- like from Stepford Wives, Father Knows Best, or Leave it to Beaver. Perhaps Tony could have some bloodstains on his shirt from his previous night's work, and maybe some teeth stuck in his pants cuffs, that Carmella could wash out with the latest detergent that would be advertised on the commercial about to follow on the A&E version.

So in a way, I still think this is the stage for presenting to us viewers the modern day American "Cleaver" family ('scuse the pun...!) :smile:

badabellisima

November 2nd, 2007, 10:16 PM

Ya know, after reviewing the thread i had some more thoughts about what kiwifan said about the opening lyrics to "You keep Me hangin' On" possibly referring to Tony's feeling about the mafia, and wanting to tell it- get outta my life and let me sleep...

Since in this scene, we hear that music as he goes home to his family, but no lyrics are sung, and then the music abruptly stops as he gets to the house--

-Well, perhaps kiwifan's point is right, and when Tony's with his family, that song doesn't play in his head. It is the theme song of his psychological journey to escape his mob life, and he can tune it out/turn it off while with his family- his Raison d'Etre. Its the song of his nighttime nightmare, or his nightime wakeful insomnia, (or the song of death, as we later hear in a future scene during Phillys' hit).

badabellisima

November 2nd, 2007, 10:22 PM

Before i forget, i hope someone chimes in about the obvious "Tony eating the orange" reference. He ate it while discussing family issues in the kitchen with Carm and AJ. It made everything seem relatively normal. In previous old posts and elsewhere, its been mentioned all over the place in brief reference-- but why in this scene? Why now? He could've eaten an orange while waiting for Harris in the scary dark. Were any other orange eating scenes in GF or otherwise eaten during anything but a calm family-type daytime scenario?

Detective Hunt

November 3rd, 2007, 09:49 AM

badabellisima

November 16th, 2007, 05:46 PM

Well, as we haven't yet heard from SilvioMancini on detailing more dialogue from this scene, it seems like its time to move on to the next scene. I realize its almost the Thanksgiving holiday, so maybe things will continue to stagnate on hold for awhile, but if anyone wants to summarize the next scene, please jump in. Otherwise, i will try to get to it in the next few days...

badabellisima

December 10th, 2007, 07:19 PM

Universal Polymath

December 11th, 2007, 12:38 PM

O.K.- so i didn't get to it... but i haven't lost interest, just time! i am still planning to get back to this, sorry for delays to anyone out there who is actually still checking in on this thread! :smile:

I've certainly been waiting for something new to happen around here. It seems like all at once everyone (well, everyone being you, DH, and richieaprile) just disappeared!

DaViE

December 11th, 2007, 05:02 PM

Hey don't worry, I'm looking at this forum nearly every day.
But sadly most of the time I'm too lazy to write down something - day is long, tired after work and my English is not so good yet.

I guess there are many people who have one of my problems, but are dropping by here very often.

This forum is the best!

Thanks to Fly, Universal Polymath, badabellisima, DH, Garth, richieaprile and all the others I've forgotten to mention!!

http://thechaselounge.net/fusion/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif http://thechaselounge.net/fusion/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif http://thechaselounge.net/fusion/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif http://thechaselounge.net/fusion/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif http://thechaselounge.net/fusion/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

SilvioMancini

December 12th, 2007, 01:10 AM

Hello All!

It's been awhile I know but Im trying to get back to this. It had to take a major backburner on my life and may still be awhile till I can continue. But I am still determined to get to it at some point, just cant do it at this time immediately. I will try to help and pick up where I can and thank you all for keeping this place alive!

badabellisima

December 12th, 2007, 12:08 PM

Totally know what you mean. i guess i should just come out with it and say whats up: my youngest sister (only 41 and looked like a kid) suddenly and unexpectedly died in October. This was after we just lost my oldest sister who died young from cancer the previous less than two years. Both times i had to back off of posting for obvious reasons, dealing with the funeral home, Rosary, Funeral Mass, burial, estate, etc., not too mention the- shall i say- family dynamics, which in our huge family, are quite similar to the Soprano's family life. Anyone that likes the Sopranos family, would like mine, except we don't murder anyone. Yet i still posted occasionally as it seems to really be helpful to stay in the game of life, which is what this board is all about. i shared alot of my joys of this board with my sister Sarah, and i know she's glad i'm hanging in there, even while missing her so terribly. Thanks Silvio for also hanging in there, and we'll get to it when we can....

Universal Polymath

December 12th, 2007, 06:39 PM

I'm so sorry to hear about your loss, Badabellisima, and of course understand completely why you haven't had the time to hang around here lately. These things are always made much worse when they are unexpected, too, and you really have my most genuine condolences.

I think about this often, when people I've come to know over the internet suddenly stop posting with no prior explanation. I've gotten to know so many people through internet forums like this, and when I don't hear from them when I think I should, I always start worrying about their well-being. It's weird, to know someone over the internet without really knowing anything about their life, current state-of-affairs, etc.

badabellisima

December 13th, 2007, 12:25 PM

Thanks UP, i know what you mean. i actually worry about some of the longlost posters and i hope they check back in soon to let us know that they are ok.

SilvioMancini

December 20th, 2007, 02:58 AM

This only reaffirms my understanding that the time we are currently living in subjects ALL of us to enormous amounts of stress and pain. Part of the sedctiveness of this show and its plotlines is that it mimics a part of our own inner pyche that is playing out for real in our personal lives. Its hard to care about this fantasy (even if the fantasy is reality based) when our personal world becomes jeopordized. Take care of thyself first and Sopranos last I say!

SilvioMancini

January 21st, 2008, 12:13 AM

Found this on another fan site:

Episode 86 - Made in America

Song List:
Tony wakes up; Dante drives Tony to his family; Phil fills up.
Song: You Keep Me Hangin' On
Artist: Vanilla Fudge

Tony and Paulie wait for Agent Harris at the airport.
Song: Denise
Artist: Randy & The Rainbows

Bobby's wake at Vesuvio's.
Song: Four Seasons
Artist: Antonio Vivaldi

AJ & Rhiannon listen to the song in the car
Song: It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)
Artist: Bob Dylan

Tony and Uncle Pat talk in backroom of The Bing.
Song: I Dreamed, I Dream
Artist: Sonic Youth

Paulie is spooked by a cat at Satriale's.
Song: Pretty Little Angel Eyes
Artist: Curtis Lee

Tony offers Paulie a promotion.
Song: I Heard It Through the Grapevine
Artist: Creedence Clearwater Revival

Neil bears bad news in The Bing backroom.
Song: The Jam
Artist: Larry Graham

AJ leaves work and picks up Rhiannon from school
Song: Scratch Your Name
Artist: The Noisettes

AJ and Rhiannon watch TV.
Song: The Lifeboat Party
Artist: Kid Creole & The Coconuts

Tony arrives at a diner and waits for his family.
Song: All That You Dream
Artist: Little Feat

Tony plays Journey on a jukebox.
Song: Don't Stop Believin'
Artist: Journey

Synopsis:

"It's like America...I mean this is still where people come to make it. It's a beautiful idea..."

Tony wakes up in the safe house: another day of hiding. That night, he and Paulie sit in the car at the end of a Teterboro airport runway, watching planes take off as they wait. Finally, Agent Harris shows up. Tony runs through the snow flurries to join him in his car. He tells Harris he remembered the name of the bank that the Arabs used. "You just remembered?" Harris asks. Tony counters with a question: if Harris's Brooklyn contact might be able to tell them where Phil is. "You're over-reaching," Harris ends the conversation.

Tony heads over to visit Carmela and the kids at their hideaway - the estate house Carmela bought for her next remodel. Meadow is on her way out and AJ is saying goodbye to Rhiannon. Tony tells AJ that Uncle Bobby's funeral is set and he's expected to attend. When AJ questions how that's possible, given they're all at "Defcon 4," Carmela explains: "There is always a large FBI presence." Indeed, at the burial, the feds are watching the camera feeds from a nearby van.

At the reception after the funeral, AJ blows up at the shallowness of the conversation at his table, complaining about the dire state of the world. Jason jokes they should join up "go kill some f**kin' terrorists," and AJ retorts that would be better than watching the "jack-off fantasies on TV of how we're kicking their ass."

Tony and Benny play cards at the safe house. Anthony Maffei enters with Patsy to deliver an envelope that's "light." When Carlo tells Tony they're going to visit Silvio at the hospital, Tony says he's got things to do: "My daughter," he says cryptically. "Yesterday it was his gout," notes Benny.

In Little Italy, Butch and Ray Ray take a call from Phil who's angry at the failure to locate Tony Soprano. Butch broaches the idea of reaching out, but Phil shuts him down: there's no going back.

Tony visits Janice at her house. He's the only one who understands her dark sense of humor she insists as they discuss her plans. She wants to make a go of it with Bobby's kids. As Tony's leaving, he gets a call from Agent Harris: "Multiple calls traced back to a pay phone in Oyster Bay, Long Island." Tony thanks him for the tip.

Parked in his SUV, AJ and Rhiannon listen to music - and make the move to consummate their friendship. As they are going at it, the car starts smoking - literally - and the two barely escape before it goes up in flames, exploding as they scramble away.

Tony and Carmela read AJ the riot act for parking his SUV in leaves. "The catalytic converter and the dry vegetation!" shouts Tony. "If there was children playing in those leaves you'd have run them over?" Carmela adds. AJ pleads his defense: depression. Still, he manages to see the bright side when told he's not getting a replacement car. "We have to break our dependence on foreign oil."

The Feds, listening in on a wiretap, pick up Tony's call to George, asking him to arrange a sit-down. In an empty warehouse, George brings Tony and Paulie together with Butch and Albie and Little Carmine. Tony asks for a location on Phil; they refuse but tell him to do what he has to do. Promising Tony they'll come to back to him with "a number" to cover Janice's loss, Butchie and Tony shake hands.

The Soprano family returns home and Paulie, Tony and the crew regroup in the back room of the pork store. Paulie is unnerved to see the cat from the safe house has made the trip. He wants to get rid of it, but Tony insists the cat stay. In the meantime, the guys cruise Oyster Bay, searching for Phil.

Janice visits Uncle Junior while Uncle Pat is visiting to report the news of Bobby's death, but Junior doesn't seem to know who she is. Later, Pat reports to Tony that Janice was fishing for Junior's money. But Tony insists Junior can "f**kin' rot."

AJ sits across from with his new female therapist (with legs to rival Melfi's) from the psychiatric hospital. He tells her he's felt "cleansed" since his car blew up.

Concerned, Paulie calls Tony from the Bing early in the morning when Carlo is a no-show for a meeting. He suggests maybe Butch has taken out another ranking guy, but Tony has another theory: Carlo's flipped. When Paulie recalls that Carlo's son Jason was picked up yesterday for selling X, the theory looks even more plausible.

Carmela is pleasantly surprised to see Meadow's friend Hunter - who she hasn't seen since she was kicked out of college. Now, however, Hunter reports, she's in her second year of medical school. Carmela abruptly informs Meadow that Patrick and his parents will be there soon to discuss wedding plans. Over cocktails, Patrick brags that his firm is interested in hiring Meadow out of law school. Tony and Carmela are pleased to hear about the high starting salary, but Carmela is less pleased with the kinds of cases he works on: "bid riggin. It's got bag men, whores...it's fascinating."

When Paulie catches the cat staring at a photo of Christopher, he gets more spooked, but Tony interrupts him with an offer: to take over skippering the Cifaretto crew now that Carlo's MIA. Paulie says he's honored but has to think about it. Tony, "miffled," gives him time to consider.

Driving, Tony spots AJ jogging and picks him up. AJ announces he's decided to join the army. Tony insists he not do anything just yet. He promptly reports the news to Carmela and the two pay a visit to AJ's new therapist. The doctor reports that AJ says he wants to "get past the hate...focus it on the terrorists." Tony quickly starts talking about his own upbringing and his difficult mother, as Carmela rolls her eyes.

Tony takes Meadow out "sake bombing" for a heart to heart about her career. She insists she wants to protect immigrant rights, having been moved by how Italian-Americans were mistreated. "If I hadn't see you dragged away all those time by the FBI then I'd probably be a boring suburban doctor," she says. Tony has no response.

Getting out of Patty's car at the gas station to make a call, Phil waves goodbye to his twin grandchildren. Before he can finish making plans, he is shot in the head. Patty screams and jumps out of the car. Still in drive, the car rolls as she tries to get to the twins but the car runs over Phil's head. When Agent Harris gets the news that Phil was "popped," he bursts out: "Damn, we're gonna win this thing!"

Carmela and Tony sit AJ down for a talk. They don't want him to join the army but have a counter-offer: he can be a development executive on a screenplay Tony got from Danny Baldwin that Little Carmine wants to produce. And after getting some real-world experience, Tony will consider financing his night club. AJ agrees, and also gives in to a new BMW so he can drive to his new job.

Over burgers, Tony's lawyer, Mink, breaks the news that someone's giving grand jury testimony. "So Carlo has flipped," Tony says. Mink puts his chances of being indicted at 80-90% but assures him "trials are there to be won."

Tony visits Silvio in the hospital, sitting with his comatose consigliere into the night.

At Satriale's Paulie declines Tony's offer to take over from Carlo, saying everyone who's had that gig has died prematurely. Tony ridicules his superstition - and finally sways him when he says he'll have to give the job to Patsy. "Prick. You always know what to say to me don't you?" says Paulie as he accepts the job.

Tony goes to visit Junior, watching him from afar before going over to talk to him. He tells Junior that if he remembers where his money is, he should tell Pat so Tony can hold it in trust for Bobby's kids; it's not fair that Janice should get it. But Junior doesn't know him. Tony tries to jog his memory: "This thing of ours..." he says, reminding him that he and Tony's father ran North Jersey. "We did?" he perks up. "That's nice." But then Junior stares into space again and Tony retreats.

Tony is the first to arrive at Holsten's for a family dinner. He sits in a booth and plays a song on the jukebox, watching the door. Carmela enters and joins him, asking about his meeting with Mink. He tells her Carlo's gonna testify and she takes the news with a sigh. AJ arrives next, complaining about the more mundane tasks of his job but quotes old advice from his father: "Try to remember the times that were good." Meanwhile, Meadow struggles to parallel park outside. Customers come and go - a shady looking guy who's been sitting at the counter enters the restroom. Finally parking the car, Meadow runs inside to join her family, just in time for dinner.

Universal Polymath

January 23rd, 2008, 09:53 PM

Actually, SilvioMancini, that's the exact synopsis posted on the official HBO site.

SilvioMancini

January 27th, 2008, 07:09 PM

ooops! I mean duh! just when I thought I found something new! Darn!

badabellisima

April 10th, 2008, 07:26 PM

Just to follow up on Silvio's previous post, here's an updated list of this episode's music from the new site www.sopranosmusicguide.com (http://www.sopranosmusicguide.com). i am planning to resume scene-by-scene analysis, and this will help map out the sequence, although there are some little details and even music clips between the lines that will be skipped by this list, so feel free to point out if we miss anything- after all, the devil is in the details!

Episode 86: Made in America

Music is listed in descending chronological order. ie. from the beginning of the episode through to the end. Title: You Keep Me Hanging On
Artist: Vanilla Fudge
Album: Vanilla Fudge - Vanilla Fudge (http://www.amazon.com/Vanilla-Fudge/dp/B000002IAK)
Usage: Tony wakes up.
Title: Denise
Artist: Randy & the Rainbows
Album: Randy & the Rainbows - 2002 Millennium (http://www.amazon.com/2002-Millennium-Randy-Rainbows/dp/B00006368Q)
Usage: Tony and Paulie wait for Agent Harris.
Title: You Keep Me Hanging On
Artist: Vanilla Fudge
Album: Vanilla Fudge - Vanilla Fudge (http://www.amazon.com/Vanilla-Fudge/dp/B000002IAK)
Usage: Dante drives Tony to his family's hideout.
Title: The Four Seasons
Artist: Antonio Vivaldi
Album: Antonio Vivaldi - Vivaldi: The Four Seasons; Violin Concertos (http://www.amazon.com/Vivaldi-Four-Seasons-Violin-Concertos/dp/B00005NPK1)
Usage: Bobby's wake at Vesuvio's.
Title: It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)
Artist: Bob Dylan
Album: Bob Dylan - Bringing It All Back Home (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00026WU9Q/)
Usage: AJ and Rhiannon listening to music in his SUV.
Title: I Dreamed I Dream
Artist: Sonic Youth
Album: Sonic Youth - Sonic Youth (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EMGA3U)
Usage: Tony and Uncle Pat talk in the Bada Bing back room.
Title: Pretty Little Angel Eyes
Artist: Curtis Lee
Album: Curtis Lee - Pretty Little Angel Eyes (http://www.amazon.com/Pretty-Little-Angel-Eyes-Curtis/dp/B00000090D)
Usage: Paulie tells the guys to get rid of the cat in the back of Satriale's.
Title: I Heard It Through The Grapevine
Artist: Creedence Clearwater Revival
Album: Creedence Clearwater Revival - Cosmo's Factory (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004TBWT/)
Usage: Paulie talks to Walden about the cat at the back of Satriale's.
Title:
Artist:
Album:
Usage: Tony and Meadow go 'saki bombing'.
Title: You Keep Me Hanging On
Artist: Vanilla Fudge
Album: Vanilla Fudge - Vanilla Fudge (http://www.amazon.com/Vanilla-Fudge/dp/B000002IAK)
Usage: Phil is whacked by Walden at a gas station.
Title: The Jam
Artist: Graham Central Station
Album: Graham Central Station - The Jam: The Larry Graham & Graham Central Station Anthology (http://www.amazon.com/Jam-Graham-Central-Station-Anthology/dp/B00005Q3AL)
Usage: Tony and Neil talk in the Bada Bing back room.
Title: Scratch Your Name
Artist: Noisettes
Album: Noisettes - What's the Time Mr. Wolf? (http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Time-Mr-Wolf-Noisettes/dp/B000O58ZY4)
Usage: AJ leaves work and picks up Rhiannon from school.
Title: The Lifeboat Party
Artist: Kid Creole & The Coconuts
Album: Kid Creole & The Coconuts - Kid Creole Redux (http://www.amazon.com/Kid-Creole-Redux-Coconuts/dp/B000002LRE)
Usage: AJ and Rhiannon watch TV.
Title: All That You Dream
Artist: Little Feat
Album: Little Feat - The Last Record Album (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-Record-Album-Little-Feat/dp/B000002KG1)
Usage: Tony arrives at Holsten's and waits for his family to arrive.
Title: Don't Stop Believin'
Artist: Journey
Album: Journey - Journey - Greatest Hits (http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Greatest-Hits/dp/B0000026NF)
Usage: Tony plays this song on a jukebox.

badabellisima

April 10th, 2008, 08:49 PM

One point about this list, though, is that, imo, it’s still not detailed enough. For example, the next song played (after where we left off in this thread at Tony's shorefront hideout-) according to this list, is “Vivaldi's Four Seasons”, played at Bobby’s wake.

Title: The Four Seasons
Artist: Antonio Vivaldi
Album: Antonio Vivaldi - Vivaldi: The Four Seasons; Violin Concertos (http://www.amazon.com/Vivaldi-Four-Seasons-Violin-Concertos/dp/B00005NPK1)
Usage: Bobby's wake at Vesuvio's.

But, it doesn't indicate which concerto. I have looked at sites all over the web on this subject of music at Bobby’s wake, and so far no one seems to be addressing this lack of detail. There are four Vivaldi concerti; named for each season: Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter, and they are set to beautiful sonnets, which I think are significant to the scene, just as the lyrics are for all the other songs on the show. The most famous we all recognize is the Allegro, 1st Movement, from the“Spring” concerto, per below. I’ve pasted in the sonnets with commentary below as well, which, imo, sheds a lot of light on this scene.

From uniquetracks.com: (click on Hi-Fi (Flash) for easy link to royalty-free legal listen). beautiful baroque, my favorite...

Allegro, 1st Mov't from 'Spring', The Four Seasons (http://www.uniquetracks.com/track.php?type=cd&value=UT07RS04&ref=&genre=C&SID=61)
Allegro, 1st Movement from Concerto No.1 In E Major RV 269, Spring by Antonio Vivaldi (1678- 1741). This is one of the most recognized pieces of classical music in the entire world. It's been used everywhere, TV shows, commercials, film and radio. (3:29)
Hi-Fi (Flash) | Hi-Fi (Quicktime) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/mp3/RS4/RS_4S_01.m3u) | Lo-Fi (Real Audio) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/realaudio/RS4/RS_4S_01.ram) | Help (http://www.uniquetracks.com/AudioHelp.htm)
Largo, 2nd Mov't from 'Spring' - The Four Seasons (http://www.uniquetracks.com/track.php?type=cd&value=UT07RS04&ref=&genre=C&SID=62)
Largo, 2nd Movement from Concerto No.1 In E Major RV 269, 'Spring' by Antonio Vivaldi (1678- 1741). (2:34)
Hi-Fi (Flash) | Hi-Fi (Quicktime) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/mp3/RS4/RS_4S_02.m3u) | Lo-Fi (Real Audio) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/realaudio/RS4/RS_4S_02.ram) | Help (http://www.uniquetracks.com/AudioHelp.htm)
Allegro, 3rd Mov't from 'Spring', The Four Seasons (http://www.uniquetracks.com/track.php?type=cd&value=UT07RS04&ref=&genre=C&SID=63)
Allegro, 3rd movement from Concerto No.1 In E Major RV 269, 'Spring' by Antonio Vivaldi (1678- 1741). This is another very famous movement from the Four Seasons. (4:14)
Hi-Fi (Flash) | Hi-Fi (Quicktime) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/mp3/RS4/RS_4S_03.m3u) | Lo-Fi (Real Audio) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/realaudio/RS4/RS_4S_03.ram) | Help (http://www.uniquetracks.com/AudioHelp.htm)
Allegro, 1st Mov't from 'Summer', The Four Seasons (http://www.uniquetracks.com/track.php?type=cd&value=UT07RS04&ref=&genre=C&SID=64)
Allegro, 1st Movement from Concerto No.2 In G Minor RV 315, 'Summer' by Antonio Vivaldi (1678- 1741). (5:18)
Hi-Fi (Flash) | Hi-Fi (Quicktime) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/mp3/RS4/RS_4S_04.m3u) | Lo-Fi (Real Audio) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/realaudio/RS4/RS_4S_04.ram) | Help (http://www.uniquetracks.com/AudioHelp.htm)
Adagio & Presto, 2nd Mov't from 'Summer", The Four Seasons (http://www.uniquetracks.com/track.php?type=cd&value=UT07RS04&ref=&genre=C&SID=65)
2nd Movement from Concerto No.2 In G Minor RV 315, 'Summer': Adagio e piano - Presto e forte by Antonio Vivaldi (1678- 1741). (2:29)
Hi-Fi (Flash) | Hi-Fi (Quicktime) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/mp3/RS4/RS_4S_05.m3u) | Lo-Fi (Real Audio) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/realaudio/RS4/RS_4S_05.ram) | Help (http://www.uniquetracks.com/AudioHelp.htm)
Presto, 3rd Mov't from 'Summer', The Four Seasons (http://www.uniquetracks.com/track.php?type=cd&value=UT07RS04&ref=&genre=C&SID=66)
Presto, 3rd Movement from Concerto No.2 In G Minor RV 315, 'Summer' by Antonio Vivaldi (1678- 1741). (2:59)
Hi-Fi (Flash) | Hi-Fi (Quicktime) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/mp3/RS4/RS_4S_06.m3u) | Lo-Fi (Real Audio) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/realaudio/RS4/RS_4S_06.ram) | Help (http://www.uniquetracks.com/AudioHelp.htm)
Allegro, 1st Mov't from 'Autumn', The Four Seasons (http://www.uniquetracks.com/track.php?type=cd&value=UT07RS04&ref=&genre=C&SID=67)
Allegro, First Movement from Concerto No.3 In F Major RV 293, 'Autumn' by Antonio Vivaldi (1678- 1741). This is probably the second most famous movement from the Four Seasons, next to the 1st movement from 'Spring'. (4:43)
Hi-Fi (Flash) | Hi-Fi (Quicktime) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/mp3/RS4/RS_4S_07.m3u) | Lo-Fi (Real Audio) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/realaudio/RS4/RS_4S_07.ram) | Help (http://www.uniquetracks.com/AudioHelp.htm)
Largo, 2nd Mov't from 'Autumn', The Four Seasons (http://www.uniquetracks.com/track.php?type=cd&value=UT07RS04&ref=&genre=C&SID=68)
Largo, 2nd Movement from Concerto No.3 In F Major RV 293, 'Autumn' by Antonio Vivaldi (1678- 1741). (2:44)
Hi-Fi (Flash) | Hi-Fi (Quicktime) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/mp3/RS4/RS_4S_08.m3u) | Lo-Fi (Real Audio) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/realaudio/RS4/RS_4S_08.ram) | Help (http://www.uniquetracks.com/AudioHelp.htm)
Allegro, 3rd Mov't from Autumn', The Four Seasons (http://www.uniquetracks.com/track.php?type=cd&value=UT07RS04&ref=&genre=C&SID=69)
Allegro, Third Movement form Concerto No.3 In F Major RV 293, 'Autumn' by Antonio Vivaldi (1678- 1741). (3:13)
Hi-Fi (Flash) | Hi-Fi (Quicktime) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/mp3/RS4/RS_4S_09.m3u) | Lo-Fi (Real Audio) (http://www.uniquetracks.com/streaming/realaudio/RS4/RS_4S_09.ram) | Help (http://www.uniquetracks.com/AudioHelp.htm)
Allegro, 1st Mov't from 'Winter', The Four Seasons (http://www.uniquetracks.com/track.php?type=cd&value=UT07RS04&ref=&genre=C&SID=70)
Allegro non molto, 1st Movement from Concerto No.4 In E Minor RV 297, 'Winter' by Antonio Vivaldi (1678- 1741). This is another of the more famous movements from Vivaldi's Four Seasons. (3:24)
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Largo, 2nd Movement from Concerto No.4 In E Minor RV 297, 'Winter' by Antonio Vivaldi (1678- 1741). (2:19)
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Allegro, Third Movement from Concerto No.4 In E Minor RV 297, 'Winter' by Antonio Vivaldi (1678- 1741). (3:06)
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From: http://www.baroque-music-club.com/vivaldiseasons.html (http://www.baroque-music-club.com/vivaldiseasons.html)

As a descriptive basis for his Four Seasons, Vivaldi took four Sonnets, apparently written by himself. Each of the four sonnets is expressed in a concerto, which in turn is divided into three phrases or ideas, reflected in the three movements (fast-slow-fast) of each concerto.

From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A423154 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A423154)

Spring

Movement 1
Here comes the Spring, and festively
The birds salute her with a merry song
And fountains, to the whispering Zephyrs
With sweet murmurings flow all the while.
Advancing o'er the heavens is a black canopy
With lightning and thunder to announce her.
Then, when they go silent, the little birds
Return anew to their cheerful song.

► The little birds represent youth, which often chooses to ignore warnings.

Movement 2
And later in the lovely flowering fields
To murmurings of fronds and leaves
The Goatherd sleeps,
His faithful dog beside.

Movement 3
To the rustic bagpipe's festive sound
Nymphs and shepherds dance
'Neath Heaven's canopy,
And Spring appears so brilliantly.

Summer

Movement 1
Beneath this hard season of the burning sun
Man and flocks languish and pines burn;
The cuckoo raises its stuttering voice;
The turtle dove and goldfinch sing in answer.
The sweet Zephyr blows, but is challenged
As Boreas invades his territory.
The shepherd weeps because he fears
The fierce looming storm, and for his destiny.

► The winds are named here; Zephyr is a gentle warming, sea-breeze, while Boreas is the cold wind from the north. An older person, or one with responsibilities, recognises warning signs, and is apprehensive of the future.

Movement 2
Depriving his tired limbs of rest
Is fear of lightning and fierce thunder
And flies, large and small
In a furious swarm.

► This verse represents the fear of death and of evil.

Movement 3
Ah, his fears are all too true,
Flashes and thunder in the heavens and hail
Dashing the heads from the stalks
Of the ripe grain.

► Violent and premature death.

Autumn

Movement 1
The peasant celebrates with dance and song
The pleasures of a good harvest,
And many, so fired by Bacchus' drafts,
End revelry in sleep.

► The music in this movement contains a short theme of an ascending scale, followed by a low note. This represents the unsuccessful efforts of various drunken revellers to get up and leave the party. At the end of the movement, this theme is repeated in the coda, indicating that the music itself has failed to escape the drunken party.

Movement 2
Making them leave off singing and dancing,
The air is mild and pleasant,
And the season invites one and all
To enjoy the sweetest sleep.

Movement 3
The hunter at the new dawn sets out
With horns, guns and dogs;
The quarry flees,
And he follows its scent.
Confused, distracted by the noise,
Of guns and dogs, wounded, it tries
Listlessly to escape, but then,
exhausted, dies.

Winter

Movement 1
Frozen, to shiver in the silvery snow
At the cutting breath of the horrid wind,
To run on, always battering our feet
While fierce frosts set out teeth a-chatter.

Movement 2
To pass by the fire quiet, contented days
While hundreds outside are drenched
By rain.

► This is probably the least understood section, because it is usually performed incorrectly. The principal theme sounds tranquil and restful - rather odd for winter, perhaps. Accompanying this theme, the strings pluck a pattern of short notes, while the basses occasionally 'whisper' quietly. The plucked notes represent rain striking a window, and the whisper represents the wind.
Vivaldi's original, clearly detailed instructions have the plucked notes played much louder than the melody. These instructions have been ignored in most performances because they are deemed to be 'obviously wrong'. As a result, the listener hears a peaceful theme with a little rain in the background, but Vivaldi wanted the listener to be outside - in the pouring rain - able to see and hear the peaceful interior only faintly above the weather. Some authentic recordings are available; this movement makes a good 'try before you buy' test.

Movement 3
To walk out on the ice, and with slow steps
For fear of falling, to tread cautiously,
To go boldly, skid, and fall to the ground.
Go on the ice anew, run strongly
Until the ice breaks and splits apart.
To hear as they escape the iron portals
Sirocco, Boreas, and all the winds at war.
This is winter, but it too brings joy.

► Sirocco is the hot dry wind from the south, fighting Boreas from the north. The walks on the ice represent someone becoming less afraid of inevitable death, and accepting fate with dignity.

badabellisima

April 11th, 2008, 02:44 PM

So, to get back on track in this thread and refresh our memories, we need to post the synopsis of the previous scene already analyzed, plus the next scene open for discussion, (with the understanding that anyone can add to this as we have time...). Remember, this thread is supposed to be detailed, and if it’s time-consuming to pick thru- that’s okay, because the point of the thread is to notice the devil in the details…. In this thread, I don’t mind being accused of over-analyzing! i'll start off with just the basics:

Previous Scene:

Tony and his driver Dante drove down to the safe house by the shore. Meadow leaves to see Patrick in the city, and Carmela complains about the odor in the old house. Carmela says she went to see Syl and feels sorry for Gabriella. A.J. comes down and lets Rhiannon out. Tony tells A.J. that Uncle Bobby's funeral is set for Thursday.
Tony: "you're going to be there."
A.J.: "How's that going to work? We're all in DEFCON 4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEFCON)." A.J. worries that they're going to be standing out in the open at the cemetery. Carmela reassures him they'll be a large FBI presence. A.J. mutters ‘unbelievable’ and trundles upstairs.

Next Scene: (Precedes the scene shift to Vivaldi music at Bobby's wake at Vesuvio's, prematurely described above)-

A television screen shows Bobby's tombstone. It's one of four t.v. monitors in an FBI van trained on various areas of the cemetery. They are watching close-ups of all the attendees to the burial after the funeral. Paulie and Patsy Parisi attend as well.

We hear the bitter cold wind whistling and drowning out the voice of the priest, who is quoting from ??? (note-I’m going to add more details on this later ‘cause I think its interesting, but needs more time…). To me, hearing this ominous wind is as important as any music set to a scene, especially due to my explanations above about the significance of the Vivaldi music (and their sonnets about the symbolism of wind), which we are just about to hear:

(part of Synopsis derived from: http://plancksconstant.org) (http://plancksconstant.org))

Now, the scene shifts to Bobby's wake at Vesuvio's, where we hear Vivaldi and see pans of ziti, fish and chicken. Everyone is enjoying the buffet; Barbara Soprano Giglione and her husband Tom, Rosie Aprile, Carmela, Paulie, Tony, Meadow and Patrick, Jason Gervasi, Carlo Gervasi. We see Tony staring at the mural of Mount Vesuvius. [Recall from episode 17, Commendatori, after Tony sees the actual Mt. Vesuvius: "I'm going to tell Artie that mural they spent all that money on looks like a used Trojan compared to this."]

Meadow asks her Uncle Paulie to join them at the table. Paulie sits next to a nice young thing and asks her who she is. She tells him that she's Tara Zincone, Bobby's niece. Paulie puts his hand over hers and says, "My condolences." But you can tell Paulie is lusting after her. He still has a thing for young girls. Paulie unbuttons his pants and loosens up a bit and slaps his stomach, "Did I eat!" "In the midst of death we are in life." A.J. doesn't appreciate the sentiment.
Just as everyone begins discussing various things, A.J. blurts out:

"You people are f*cked. You're living in a dream. You still sit here talking about the f*cking Oscars. What rough beast slouches towards Bethlehem to be born (http://www.yeatsvision.com/SecondNotes.html)? Yeats. [A.J. quotes Yeats but pronounces it Yeets. He's corrected by Tom Giglione] The world, don't you see it. Bush let al Qaeda escape, the mountains. Then he has us invade some other country... It's more noble than watching these jack off fantasies on TV if I were kicking their ass. It's like, America.... I'm mean this is still where people come, to make it. It's a beautiful idea. And what do they get, bling? And come on for shit they don't need and can't afford."

Tara tells him that he's all over the place and she doesn't understand what he's trying to say.
Paulie, laughing : "He's saying that the framus intersects with the ramistan approximately at the pater noster."
(Note that “pater noster” above is latin for the “Our Father” prayer, common term used among old-timer Catholics when I was a kid).
http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/images/sub3/tara.JPG

SilvioMancini

April 11th, 2008, 05:23 PM

thats good bada! there were a couple lines left out in the dialogue between AJ and Patrick. "Like why dont we join up and kill some of those muthafuckers!" and maybe a few others. I wish we could have a copy of the original screenplay:(

badabellisima

April 11th, 2008, 10:07 PM

Yeah, me too. seems i remember someone mentioning somewhere to find more compiled dialogue transcripts. Anyone know? :confused:

Man-In-MembersOnly-Jacket

April 12th, 2008, 02:47 PM

I recently got myself a copy of "The Sopranos Complete Book". The book is a must read for all of you obsessed Sopranos fans out there. The David Chase interview combined with the editing of the final scene in Holsten's has convinced me 100% that Tony was shot. I'm not gonna post the entire interview. The book is $25 on Amazon.com and if you're too cheap, the local library probably has a copy. Anyway here is what sticks out in my mind after reading the Chase interview and then re-watching the final scene:

"Originally, I didn't want any credits at all, I just wanted the black screen to go the length of the credits - all the way to the HBO 'whoosh' sound. But the Directors Guild wouldn't give us a waiver."

So there you go. Why did Chase want complete silence and blackness? What does that imply?

People love to talk about the Bobby Bacala/"never hear it coming" line. Chase, unprovoked, reminds us of the way NY's Jerry Torciano was killed:

"There are no esoteric clues in there. No Davinci Code. Everything that pertains to that episode was in that episode. And it was in the episode before that and the one before that and seasons before this one and so on. There had been indications of what the end is like. Remember when Jerry Torciano was killed? Silvio was not aware that the gun had been fired until after Jerry was on his way down to the floor. That's the way things happen: It's already going on by the time you even notice it. "

Why would he even bring this up? For conversation? No...because it foreshadows the final scene.

The directing of the final scene is key. I know it's all been discussed and dissected to death on these forums. I can't get more in-depth than others have already. There's an obvious, consistent pattern of editing whenever someone enters Holsten's:

1) we hear the bell ring
2) we see Tony look up
3) we see what Tony sees
4) we see Tony again
5) repeat

It repeats again and again, until the end. I know the interview and the theory is old news around here. But to me it's just black and white, it's so obvious. Chase wanted an artistic way to end the show, and he did it without having to film Tony face down in a bowl of onion rings.

Detective Hunt

April 13th, 2008, 08:58 AM

SilvioMancini

April 13th, 2008, 05:22 PM

MIMOJ- I like your post and it reminded me of what Ive thought since the finale. The quote from Chase seems to give it all away though, the one about getting whacked..... But I agree with DH, this isnt necessarily about proving he died. This is an attempt to look at the details scene by scene as a way of being more objective about it. Never the less like I said above, I totally agree with those observations...........

badabellisima

April 14th, 2008, 09:40 PM

Right off the segway-bat with this scene, we see the fulfillment (from the previous scene) of Carmella's reassurance to AJ that there will be large FBI presence at the funeral, thereby giving them some sense of safety and protection- not from the big bad cops- but from their own kind while they're on a hiatus from "DEFCON 4". (which btw, was probably the wrong usage, as Defcon 4 is only one step away from stage 5- regular peacetime. A high security readiness alert would be Defcon 2)...

The thing that strikes me about this opener, is that often Chase fluctuates back and forth between almost idyllic scenes of Tony with his blood family, safe and secure; then with scenes of his Family family, potentially facing threats and danger and commiting crimes, etc.; but all the while, keeping the two worlds fairly separate or in contrast. Now we are seeing Tony's wife and kids more openly acknowledging their connection to what Tony really does, and also blurring the line between the two worlds, and actually accepting 'protection' from their sometime enemy. Its the first time i recall Carm speaking in anything but an angry tone about the FBI, almost like she made peace with 'em...

From the opening of this scene, there is a sense of genuine grief and real loss at the passing of a most beloved friend and favorite character. The close-ups, first on the lonely tombstone, then on the faces of the burial attendees, feels like a swansong as the actors have to let go of someone they have also known for along time. The camera seemed unwavering, almost impolite in its cold-eye bare stare at the grief-stricken faces, especially Janice's. At the time that we all first saw this, the tension had been really building up towards the end of the series, and i remember distinctly feeling a more intense grief with this loss and funeral than with the many other funerals so far in the series.

The whole harsh-outdoors ambience and windy-seasonal feel to the burial scene really contrasted to sliding into the Vivaldi-coated warmth and familiarity of Nuevo Vesuvio's. And even with all the sheltered comfort of family and friends around, the isolated Tony and Carm scene doesn't, to me, feel too tenuous. i totally don't get the feeling that they are in danger or have fear, so much as they are more solid as a pair now- especially after Carm's remarks about the FBI presence.

i think starting with Bobby's wake, they have more publicly crossed over the line into less dependance on the Family, and more interdependence on their own blood family. i mean, it was only a short time before that we were seeing Tony chummy up with Agent Harris- and for the first time really made aware that Tony is truly more friendly with the FBI than we may have realized, if perhaps suspected. These funeral-wake scenes always serve to give background and set the stage for the cultural side of the show (what mob show ever was known not to have such scenes or references?). So Chase managed to add yet another one, but not have it come across as repetitive or trite. He showed us genuine effects from the loss of a character on the surviving families' lives, with genuine change in behavior, not just predictable scripted changes. Its like when in the Godfather, Don Corleone lost Sonny, his son, that was it- Enough was enough. It led to ending the gang war by whatever means necessary. imo, its possible that the marking of the loss of Bobby was also the marking of the loss of Tony's former rock-solid allegiance to his crew. He is letting them go like he is letting Bobby go; like we all have to let Bobby go and say goodbye. :frown:

badabellisima

April 19th, 2008, 12:53 PM

After reviewing turangawaewaes' post about wind (in the symbolism-6a-6b solar thread), i still feel that Chase is deliberately increasing his use of wind, like an increasingly windy storm in real life, to build up the tension to the end. We see and hear more and more wind, generally under ominous or unfavorable conditions (not frolicking children enjoying wind while flying their kites). imo, this scene helps to emphasize the sense of an underlying build-up and passing through (like Bobby's trains and Bobby himself) of a wind-like spirit or force, blowing through the series. Sometimes gusting, but always a steadily increasing force. With the passing thru of Bobby, we have this temporary calm respite at Vesuvio's, but the wind still howls outside, and even the strings of Vivaldi inside are talking about the clashing of two wind forces yet to come.

turangawaewae

April 19th, 2008, 04:16 PM

I definately agree. It is everywhere, until (without getting too far ahead), the scene where Tony is raking leaves just before he goes to see Junior, and then on to the diner, where the trees are perfectly still and barren (and you hear ducks quacking in the distance).

turangawaewae

April 20th, 2008, 05:49 AM

Sorry Badabell; I sat down to do the next scene, and quickly realised I didn't know enough of the characters names to do the analysis justice. I did rewatch the scenes up to the Bobby's wake scene, just to see what the story was with the wind, and made the following notes:
1. In scene 2, when Tony is waiting in the car for Agent Harris, it is obviously windy, with the wind plainly being heard in both cars. When Tony was outside the car, it did seem that the sound of the wind was far greater than the wind visually appeared on screen (By the way the snow was coming down).
2. In the next scene at Carmella's next spec house, there is a light zephyr, with a couple of small objects blowing in front of the camera at one point. The wind or sea can be heard fron inside the house, more so when AJ opens the door.
3. As Badabell has stated, there is a very strong wind at Bobby's funeral. Once again, it SOUNDS very loud.
4. Obviously there is no wind inside at the wake, but there is the odd shot of Carm and Tony eating on their own under the painting. Any ideas why this shot was thrown in there?
5. In the next scene, when Butchie walks through little Italy talking to Phil on the phone, once again we hear the wind and see the snow.
6. Without wanting to get too far ahead, the last scene I looked at was the next one where Tony visited Janice. The trees are still, and there is no obvious wind at the start, but Janice's hair can be seen blowing in a light wind. There is the sound of wildlife (ducks?). As the scene progresses, the wind does become more audible.

badabellisima

April 20th, 2008, 09:25 PM

Interesting. You're making me notice how the absence of wind may be just as important as the presence of wind in communicating-- well, in communicating a lot of things! i am going to re-watch these eps again with more attention to wind and light, and natural forces in general. Perhaps the more genuinely 'centered' and distraction-free Tony is, the more he can truly 'hear' the wind of the good spirit, versus being driven by some sort of ominous wind?

i guess it would be too painfully obvious to have, for example, 'Jaws-like' music whenever scary sharks were circling, so similarly there is no way would Chase show blowing ominous windy sounds around tragedy and malevolence, and tweeting birds and soft breezes when life looked rosy...but there really does seem to be an increasing pattern of wind-use.

badabellisima

May 6th, 2008, 03:27 PM

Turangawaewae's remarks about the absence of wind before the final diner scene when Tony's blood family was present brings back to mind how Chase uses blood family scenes alternated with scenes of 'The Family' (cosa nostra) to build up tension and highlight the differences between the two worlds; to remind us of Tony's dilemma in being unable to fully integrate them and the push-pull of the two sides of his life.

So, getting back to the presence or absence of wind used in this particular scene, i'm thinking that when at the burial, the two worlds were combined, and all members were within the same ominous wind. (Other times when the two worlds were combined, like at a Soprano barbeque, i think it was usually windless, calm, peaceful. can anyone think of another combo-time that had ominous wind?).

And then after the burial, when there was that strange scene of Tony and Carm underneath the mural of Mount Vesuvius (symbol of potential explosion in the future?), they were obviously separated out from the integration of the two worlds. Normally at combo-time scenes with the two worlds sharing food, they are fully integrated and sharing BBQ or dinner, etc. with everyone else. But note how Paulie was fully integrated and sitting with family members. Makes me wonder about why was he at the scene where Tony is shown for the first time in the role of possibly flipping Agent Harris? Surely Tony could have met Harris privately if he needed to hide it from Paulie, so where really is Paulie in all this? And what was his portrayal at the wake dinner scene intended to convey? If there was room for Paulie at the Soprano kid's table, there would have been room for Tony and Carm...

SilvioMancini

May 6th, 2008, 04:37 PM

I always assumed Tony and Carm were isolated was a way of protecting them from any outside threats or hits. But I never knew why I thought that. It was just a intuition at first, but I always felt it conveyed a sense of danger to the Family at that point seeing as no one knew where the hit came from.

badabellisima

May 6th, 2008, 09:20 PM

Okay, wrong episode (couldn't find that pic from Ep86- saw it somewhere--anyone have it?...), but here's a picture of Tony and Carm near the Volcano mural at Vesuvio's. Note the wind blowing the ash cloud from Tony towards Carm...Here, in earlier ep, the volcano seaparates them. By the last ep, they are together beneath the volcano, both in the path of the coming, inevitable explosion....Nature bats last.

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/Sopranos-tv-61.jpg

http://www.starpulse.com/Television/Sopranos,_The/gallery/SOPRANOSTV0061/

badabellisima

May 7th, 2008, 12:03 AM

So, back to scene portion: AJ’s tirade at Bobby’s wake at Vesuvios…

TWOP (Television Without Pity) re-cap of this portion of scene:
…Most of the younger crowd (Meadow and Patrick, the two Jasons, Bobby's kids, AJ, some other randoms) sits around a table and talks about American Idol. Because we, as a culture, are getting dumber due to reality television. Am I right? Or am I AJ? Paulie stands nearby, looking a bit lost, and Meadow invites him to join them. Paulie sits down and checks out the young lady (probably nineteen or twenty?) seated next to him, who introduces herself as "Tara Ziccone, Bobby's niece." Paulie pats her on the hand and practically pulls her into his lap. Instead, he unzips his pants and lets his belly hang out. Sexy. Paulie philosophizes about life and death and says that he's "lost two dear friends." One of the Jasons says that Sil's hanging on, and Paulie says sharply, "I lost Ma last month! You can take 2007 and give it back to the Indians." Patsy and his wife wave their son Jason over -- hey, his wife is Donna "Angie" Pescow! I mentioned that to my husband (who is one year younger than me) and he had no clue what I was talking about. Saturday Night Fever? Nothing. He is so culturally deprived. Anyway, AJ goes off on a rant about how everyone is living in a dream and goes on to quote "Yeets." Heh. I love when the writers undermine AJ's stupid rants. AJ starts explaining to everyone how Bush let Al-Qaeda escape. Jason Gervasi suggests that they enlist and kill some terrorists. Instead of looking annoyed, everyone at the table just looks kind of worried about AJ, especially Meadow. AJ continues, "It's like, America. It's still where people come to make it. It's a beautiful idea. And then what do they get? Bling? Come-ons for shit they don't need and can't afford?" I missed the part where someone is holding a gun to these poor people's heads and forcing them to buy things they can't afford. Tara Ziccone doesn't get it, and Paulie explains, "The framus intersects with the ramistan approximately at the paternoster." In other words, nonsense. Paulie represents the viewer who has no patience for all my symbolism mumbo-jumbo. Sometimes I am that viewer. …(fr Kim at TWOP)

SO then, still within this scene, with Paulie at the table with AJ et al, Paulie’s initial remark (about how in the midst of death, we are in life) instigates the famous Yeats line, mis-pronounced by AJ : "What rough beast slouches towards Bethlehem?" (from Yeats’ poem “The Second Coming”):

(Dialogue from IMDb)-

"The Sopranos: Made in America (#6.21)" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0995839/) (2007)
Patrick Parisi (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0784815/): [to Paulie] Ay, we were discussing Dreamgirls. You see it?
Anthony 'A.J.' Soprano, Jr. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0407615/): You people are fucked. You're living in a dream. And you still sit here talking about the fucking Oscars? "What rough beast slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"
Paulie 'Walnuts' Gualtieri (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0802831/): Huh?
Anthony 'A.J.' Soprano, Jr. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0407615/): Yeets.
Meadow Soprano (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0797464/): A.J...
Anthony Maffei (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0127362/): Yeats?
Anthony 'A.J.' Soprano, Jr. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0407615/): The world... Don't you see it? I mean, Bush let Al-Qaeda escape...
Paulie 'Walnuts' Gualtieri (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0802831/): Oh!
Anthony 'A.J.' Soprano, Jr. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0407615/): ...in the mountains? Then he has us invade some other country?
Jason Gervasi (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0674786/): Let's join up, go kill some fuckin' terrorists.
Anthony 'A.J.' Soprano, Jr. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0407615/): It's more noble than watching these jack-off fantasies on TV of how we're kickin' their ass!

(Obviously, it can’t be a coincidence that Sopranos Ep 84 has the same title: "The Second Coming"…see synopsis below )

Sooo anyway—since nothing’s too detailed for my belabored analysis of every scene in detail: Here it is: (William Butler Yeats (1865-1939, printed 1920)

The Second Coming

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight; somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

---(My) NOTE: In "Another Toothpick" Tony's birth date is given as 08-24-1960: He’s a LEO! (relevant to the analysis involving the Yeats' astrological lion/sphynx symbolism of the poem, and my connection to seeing Tony as the Lion or cat...

-- (My) Note on Spiritus Mundis above: Spiritus is a derivative of a Latin word meaning "breath, breath of a god, inspiration: SPIRIT... CONSPIRE... INSPIRE... TRANSPIRE." Mundi is also a derivative of a Latin word : mundus., it translates into "universe" or "world." The breath of God in the world (Spiritus Mundis) could also translate ( in ancient hebrew i think, as i mentioned in previous post about 'Ruach') into: "the wind", or "spirit" of God breathed into the world, or blowing through the world.

--Here’s a portion of the Wikipedia re-cap of Sopranos Episode 84, also titled “The Second Coming”:

(Tony has already returned from Vegas and the Peyote trip)…

…A.J. despairs about the world and his future to his therapist, Dr. Richard Vogel, complaining, "Why can't I catch a fuckin' break?" He becomes interested in W. B. Yeats' poem "The Second Coming" and reads it in bed. He feels deeply disillusioned with the political and materialist status quo and talks pessimistically while Christopher's widow Kelli is over for dinner. When Meadow comes to see her brother in his bedroom, he dismisses her cheeriness about Borat, telling her "it wasn't fair to the people involved" and dejectedly claims that the U.S. will bomb Iran. He also tells her he's dropped out of college. Meadow tries to console him and reminds him that he's a son in an Italian family and so "you'll always be more important." After Carmela leaves for a lunch date, A.J. attempts suicide in the family pool,…

At a session with A.J.'s psychiatrist that Tony and Carmela attend, A.J. recalls times when he felt humiliated by his mother and depressed by his visits to Livia at the nursing-home. As Tony listens, he notices one of Coco's bloody teeth inside the cuff of his pants leg. Carmela wonders why a college would teach a poem like "The Second Coming" to young people.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/df/Thesecondcomingsopranos.jpg/300px-Thesecondcomingsopranos.jpg

Tony partly blames himself for his son's state while in Dr. Melfi's office, although he also says he realized, while on peyote in Vegas, that mothers are like buses who drop you off and continue on, but "we keep trying to get back on the bus." Dr. Melfi tells him that it's an insightful thought.

…In the final scene, a despondent Tony comes to visit his son at the hospital and, with the glass doors to the mental-health ward sliding shut behind him, father walks down the hall to his son.
"The Second Coming" is a poem by W.B. Yeats which A.J. is studying for college. Its bleak perspective increases A.J.'s depression which culminates in his suicide attempt. Parts of the poem's final lines ("what rough beast . . . Slouching towards Bethlehem") are echoed in the final shot. A slouching, downcast Tony is seen walking down the halls of the mental hospital, or "Bethlehem", which was famously the name of the world's first psychiatric hospital.

Wikipedia Title References:

-In the Season 5 episode, "Cold Cuts", Dr. Melfi quotes "The Second Coming" to Tony. As Tony rants about phone recordings and the technological "advancements" that, while meant to make life easier, only complicate matters ..., Melfi agrees: "The center cannot hold. The falcon cannot hear the falconer", which later is recounted in the episode " The Second Coming".

-A.J. can be seen as the second coming of Tony's panic attacks and fits of depression; Tony has often talked with Dr. Melfi about his passing-down of these weaknesses to his son.

-Tony can be seen as the second coming of his mother, Livia. Tony displays Livia's paranoid and vindictive tendencies throughout the second half of season six, and says "Poor you!", Livia's standard response for when someone is looking for sympathy from her, in this episode to Carmela and A.J. when they complain.

badabellisima

May 7th, 2008, 12:22 AM

Further analysis on Yeats’ poem:

From the NY Times: By ADAM COHEN Published: February 12, 2007

What W. B. Yeats’s ‘Second Coming’ Really Says About the Iraq War

The Brookings Institution, the prominent Washington research organization, just released a report on the Iraq war entitled “Things Fall Apart.” When Representative Jim McDermott, Democrat of Washington, took to the House floor last year to demand that President Bush present a plan for Iraq, he called his speech “The Center Cannot Hold.” Blogs are full of the observation that “the blood-dimmed tide is loosed” in Iraq these days.

These phrases all come from William Butler Yeats’s “Second Coming.” Yeats’s bleakly apocalyptic poem has long been irresistible to pundits. What historical era, after all, is not neatly summed up by his lament that “The best lack all conviction, while the worst/Are full of passionate intensity”? But with its somber vision of looming anarchy, and its Middle Eastern backdrop (the terrifying beast Yeats warns of “slouches towards Bethlehem”), “The Second Coming” is fast becoming the official poem of the Iraq war.

The pundits who quote it, though, are picking up on Yeats’s words, but not his world view. As Helen Vendler, the great Harvard poetry scholar, and others have pointed out, “The Second Coming” is really two poems. The first eight lines are filled with the pointed aphorisms that pundits like so much, while the rest of the poem suggests the unpredictability of how history will unfold. This second, less quoted part is the one that speaks most directly to the grim situation in Iraq.

Yeats wrote “The Second Coming” in 1919, an especially dismal moment in history. Europeans were shell-shocked from World War I, and deeply cynical. Yeats’s homeland, Ireland, was lurching toward civil war. The old order in Russia had just been toppled by a revolution that Yeats — who had a fondness for aristocracy — feared would spread across the continent and the globe.

Yeats’s perspective on the world’s troubles was not what many people who quote him today might suspect. For one thing, he was not a Christian. He dabbled in theosophy and the occult, and considered Christianity an idea whose time had passed. “The Second Coming” is not, as its title and the Bethlehem reference might suggest, an account of the return of the Messiah. What is being born is nothing resembling Christ.

As for his politics, Yeats was hardly a democrat, and he did not care much for “progress” — which makes him an odd choice for people who hope to turn Iraq into a vibrant democracy. Yeats was attracted to fascism, and he rebelled as a youth against the adults’ talk of progress by embracing its opposite. “I took satisfaction in certain public disasters, felt sort of ecstasy at the contemplation of ruin,” he once wrote.

The first eight lines of “The Second Coming,” as Ms. Vendler notes, are the philosophical part of the poem. A rational, thinking observer — a pundit, of sorts — is describing the world in definite, if foreboding, terms. “The falcon cannot hear the falconer” paints a vivid image of the natural order coming apart. “Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world” describes an onslaught of destruction almost matter-of-factly.

But after those eight lines, the poem suddenly becomes, as Ms. Vendler notes, “oracular.” Like the Delphic oracle, this Yeats speaks cryptically. “Surely the Second Coming is at hand,” he says — but of course, “surely” here means its opposite: what follows is not certain at all. Yeats goes on to announce “somewhere in sands of the desert/ A shape with lion body and the head of a man” — an indefinite creature in an indefinite place.

The poem reflects, as Harold Bloom, the Yale professor and literary critic, says, Yeats’s belief that a “change in god” was coming, “and that the 2,000-year reign of Christianity was about to end.” But it does not reveal who this god will be. Its last two lines are a question: “And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,/ Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?”

“The Second Coming” is a powerful brief against punditry. The Christian era was about the ability to predict the future: the New Testament clearly foretold the second coming of Christ. In the post-Christian era of which Yeats was writing there was no Bible to map out what the next “coming” would be. The world would have to look toward Bethlehem to see what “rough beast” arrived.

This skepticism about predicting the future has more relevance to the Iraq war than any of the poem’s much-quoted first eight lines. The story of the Iraq war is one of confident predictions that never came to pass: “We will find weapons of mass destruction”; “we will be greeted as liberators”; “the insurgency is in its last throes.”

The confident predictors who have been wrong in the past do not hesitate to keep offering up plans. That is true of President Bush, certainly: he talks about what his “troop surge” will do as if he had never been wrong before. It is also true of the pundits. The co-author of “Things Fall Apart,” the Brookings guide to going forward in Iraq, is Kenneth Pollack, who is — incredibly — best known for his 2002 book “The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq.”

It is bizarre to see shards of “The Second Coming” appended to the Brookings report, or to any of the other plans and prognostications about the war in Iraq. Yeats, who grew up feeling “sort of ecstasy at the contemplation of ruin,” did not just welcome whatever new order his rough beast was ushering in. He believed the only way it could plausibly be spoken of was in the form of a question.

More, from Neil Mann (http://www.yeatsvision.com/SecondNotes.html (http://www.yeatsvision.com/SecondNotes.html)), who favors the idea that the Second Coming does NOT refer to the second coming of Jesus, but rather someone/something more ominous, I think a common interpretation. But others argue that Yeats does refer to Jesus’ return…

FYI, (my) NOTE: In "Another Toothpick" Tony's birth date is given as 08-24-1960: He’s a LEO! (relevant to the following analysis involving the Yeats' astrological lion/sphynx symbolism of the poem, and my connection to seeing Tony as the Lion or cat...

… ‘The Second Coming’ was written in January 1919, according to what George Yeats told Richard Ellmann (The Identity of Yeats), and first appeared in The Dial and The Nation in November 1920 and then in book form in Michael Robartes and the Dancer (1922). Jon Stallworthy has analysed the drafting process of the poem in Between the Lines (and the drafts also appear in the Cornell series, Michael Robartes and the Dancer), showing how Yeats originally referred to Burke, Pitt and the Germans on the Russian border, but these details were removed and much of the poem’s power derives from its prophetic generalisation and vagueness. In this it has Biblical resonances from the Prophets of the Old Testament, with its dismayed view of the current state of the world and its foreboding about what will come.

The opening image derives from the System and the widening gyre, an historical movement or trend that started at the birth of Christ, is figured as a falcon’s towering. In the System, this gyre is accompanied by a diminishing gyre which reaches its minimum at the same time as the first reaches its widest extent, which may therefore be linked to the ‘twenty centuries of stony sleep’; these gyres have the inevitability of the tides, and like them are connected to the Moon and its phases. In the symbol of the falcon, the falconer represents control but stands at the lowest point of the gyre’s apex, so that, as the falcon towers higher, it can no longer hear the controlling centre. This leads to the stark, simple statements ‘Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold’. Indeed, much of the power of the opening section derives from the simplicity of its language, as well as the accumulation of symbols and images, which proceed with an oneiric logic through a single sentence: falcon’s gyre widening, disintegration, anarchy, tide of blood, drowning of ceremony of innocence, weakness and passion. The word ‘Mere’ means both pure and only, and the first section further emphasises the generality and absoluteness of the situation with words such as ‘everywhere’ and ‘all’. The ‘Mere anarchy’ which is loosed (by whom?) like a plague or scourge then becomes a tide dimmed by blood, recalling the bloody seas of the Revelation of St John, the flood from the mouth of the serpent and the vials of wrath (Rev 8:8; 12:15; 16:1-4). The phrase ‘The ceremony of innocence’ is linked to a poem from later in 1919, ‘A Prayer for my Daughter’, where the poet asks ‘How but in custom and ceremony / Are innocence and beauty born?’; here the phrase suggests a vague image of whatever the reader’s imagination summons (perhaps white cloth or candles?), which is then engulfed in the crimson of the multitudinous seas. The view then moves to society and the abstract groupings of its best and worst: the best are paralysed by lack of conviction, while the worst are fired with ‘passionate intensity’, possibly linked to the red tide of anarchy. Yeats is constantly wary of the intoxicating or brutalising effect of fanaticism and hatred, both in himself and others, and especially in the context of the struggle for Irish independence, the Easter Rising and the Civil War: see, for example, "Easter 1916" (September 1916); "On a Political Prisoner" (January 1919); "A Prayer for My Daughter" (June 1919); "Meditations in Time of Civil War" (1921-23), especially the last two parts, VI and VII; "Remorse for Intemperate Speech" (August 1931).

The repetitions and echoes of the first section (‘Turning and turning’, ‘loosed . . . loosed’, ‘falcon . . . falconer. . . fall’) are emphasised at the beginning of the second section: ‘Surely some revelation is at hand; /Surely the Second Coming is at hand. / The Second Coming!’ The phrase used in the drafts was ‘the second birth’, but in the final version the idea is linked far more clearly to the Second Coming of Christ, and this is reinforced by the mention of Bethlehem in the last line. Yet if this is a second coming, it is not the second coming of Christ envisaged in Revelation or the Gospels (see Matt 24, Mark 13).

The poem moves from generality to a vision experienced in the first person, which Stallworthy characterises as ‘that most common Yeatsian pattern of an objective first movement passing into a more subjective second movement’ (Between the Lines, 24). An image emerges from ‘Spiritus Mundi’, the world’s creative and active mind (cf. Anima Mundi, the world-soul), which recalls a vision that Yeats himself experienced when the Tattwic symbol of Fire was pressed to his forehead by Mathers (Au 185-86). Here, however, the figure is not a Titan emerging from ruins, but a figure in ‘sands of the desert’ like the Sphinx at Giza, which is itself probably an image of solar deity, ‘A shape with lion body and the head of a man’. (It is worth noting that the sphinx was regarded in the Golden Dawn as a combination of elemental forces, particularly the ‘Sphynx’ of their Enochian magic, and with this appearance represents the combination of Fire and Air, or Leo [lion] and Aquarius [human] [see RGD 659 ff.], possibly therefore linked with the coming age of Aquarius.*note) But Yeats deliberately does not call it a sphinx, describing rather than naming it, and another source of the symbol’s inspiration was slightly different: in the Introduction to The Resurrection he notes how, at around the time of writing On Baile’s Strand (1904), ‘I began to imagine, as always at my left side just out of the range of sight, a brazen winged beast which I associated with laughing, ecstatic destruction’, noting that the beast was ‘Afterwards described in my poem "The Second Coming."’ (Ex 393, VPl 932). The Sphinx also appears, named in another poem from 1919, ‘The Double Vision of Michael Robartes’, where it takes on the Greek female form, ‘A Sphinx with woman breast and lion paw’, and it is possible that Yeats associated the term more fully with the murderous inquisitor of the Oedipus myth, since the name literally means strangler. In ‘The Double Vision’ the Sphinx is one of the ‘heraldic supporters guarding the mystery of the fifteenth phase’ (AV B 207), at which a new religious dispensation starts, and symbolises the conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn which presides over the start of an antithetical dispensation (see below; for more on this poem, see ‘The Double Vision of Michael Robartes’).

The image of ‘The Second Coming’ is no heraldic emblem but moves, its pitiless inhumanity reflected from its human head, and the reeling of the desert birds echoes the falcon’s towering at the opening of the poem. The ‘slow thighs’ emphasise its physicality and almost sexual aura. At this stage the vision ends, but the poem’s speaker then moves on to a conclusion: ‘now I know’. What he knows, however, is couched in the most gnomic terms: ‘That twenty centuries of stony sleep / Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle’. Given Yeats’s idea of the two-thousand-year cycles, one of which started at Christ’s birth, we have an appropriate period (though the first printing in The Dial had ‘thirty centuries’, the drafts and all later versions have ‘twenty’); but who is the sleeper? is it the stony sphinx or the world? Elsewhere, Yeats refers to the representative of the antithetical tincture as ‘Old Rocky Face’ (‘The Gyres’ VP 564; 1936-37; possibly the Delphic Oracle or Shelley’s Ahasureus, see NC 359) and it is possible that he saw the ancient polytheistic past associated with the antithetical as having lain in stasis during the cycle of monotheism, associated with its opposite, the primary. The antitheticalawaits revivification, like ‘mummy-wheat’ which will sprout when it is sown again, and its dormancy has been a kind of stony sleep which might well regard the ascendancy of its opposite as a nightmare (see the Tinctures). The rocking cradle appears to allude to the baby Jesus, yet Christ is almost never pictured as lying in a cradle, rather the beasts’ manger, so that in some respects Yeats divorces the nightmare’s stimulus from Jesus and it may be linked to the ‘Babe’ of ‘The Mental Traveller’, who is reborn in a reversing cycle of victimage, which Yeats links to the reversing cycles of A Vision and the birth of a ‘child or era’ (AV B 257 & 277). The final question mark makes the last clause ambiguous, since the phrase can be read in two ways: ‘now I know. . . what rough beast’ and 'what rough beast?’. The question, though, predominates, since even within the framework of Yeats’s System the future is uncertain: the broad outline is inevitable, but the ‘particulars are the work of the Thirteenth Cone or cycle’, which represents the divine (AV B 302), so that A Vision itself ends in a series of questions. Yeats therefore knows that this coming is of a ‘rough beast’ (another echo of Revelation, see Rev 13), that the beast’s hour has ‘come round at last’, the phrasing indicating the cyclical nature of this hour, and that it slouches towards Bethlehem, but still questions its nature. The word ‘Slouches’ adds to the sinister aura, with its precise, feline blend of casualness and stalking, but despite the sensuousness of this verb and of the ‘slow thighs’, the beast has not yet been born into the physical world.

The beast’s birth at Bethlehem links it to the birth of Jesus, but Bethlehem is more a symbolic state than a geographical place (like Blake’s Jerusalem, for instance). In the System of A Vision, Yeats indicates that the coming Avatar, or divine incarnation, because it is antithetical will be multiple rather than single, and he represents the classical predecessor of Christ in a variety of ways. In one guise, the counterpart is Oedipus, who ‘lay upon the eath at the middle point between four sacred objects. . . and he sank down soul and body into the earth. I would have him balance Christ who, crucified standing up, went into the abstract sky soul and body. . . .’ (AV B 29). In the poem ‘Leda and the Swan’ (also titled just ‘Leda’), however, he sees the rape of Leda by Zeus in the form of a swan as the heroic age’s key moment: ‘I imagine the annunciation that founded Greece as made to Leda. . . .’ (AV B 268). It is the counterpart to the annunciation to Mary by the Holy Ghost, represented by a dove, and he titles the section of A Vision on historical cycles ‘Dove or Swan’. Leda’s daughter, Helen, precipitates the Trojan War and her other daughter, Clytemnestra, kills her husband, Agamemnon: ‘A shudder in the loins engenders there / The broken wall, the burning roof and tower / And Agamemnon dead’. It is a form of this classical antithetical annunciation, similar to that of the Swan but different, which will be repeated.

The poem’s power of image and language is to some extent independent of Yeats’s own ideas, and by using Biblical echoes, both in style and reference, Yeats gives the poem an immediacy, which some of the others that derive from the System of A Vision lack. It draws on the cultural context or schema in which we tend read it, giving expression to millennial dread and the feeling that we live in times of unprecedented upheaval, whether or not we actually do. ‘The Second Coming’ also has a intrinsic linguistic vividness that is witnessed by the frequency with which is quoted. From Chinua Achebe’s novel, Things Fall Apart, to Joan Didion’s Slouching Towards Bethlehem, almost every phrase in the poem has been used, usually more than once, to entitle a book or an article of greater or lesser impact (there is a collage version of the poem at deuceofclubs.com that uses some of these to build the poem from book-covers; some bits work better than others). Even relatively small modifications of language weaken it considerably, as is evidenced by Joni Mitchell’s generally respectful reworking, ‘Slouching Toward Bethlehem’.

Yeats had written in 1900 that: ‘It is only by ancient symbols, by symbols that have numberless meanings besides the one or two the writer lays an emphasis upon, or the half-score he knows of, than any highly subjective art can escape from the barrenness and shallowness of a too conscious arrangement, into the abundance and depth of Nature. The poet of essences and pure ideas must seek in the half-lights that glimmer from symbol to symbol as if to the ends of the earth, all that the epic and dramatic poet finds of mystery and shadow in the accidental circumstances of life’ (‘The Philosophy of Shelley’s Poetry’, E&I 87). The symbols that he uses here similarly partake of a wider symbolism of ‘numberless meanings’ rather than just the ones which are linked to his System and the poem’s immediate inspiration, so that although a knowledge of Yeats’s ideas certainly clarifies elements in the poem, ‘The Second Coming’ has no single explanation.

* An earlier version of the page linked the image of the sphinx to the angel Sandalphon, the Archangel of the lowest Sephirah, Malkuth, the Kingdom, often identified with the planet Earth. This was taken from a secondary source and I now find that it is not supported in any Golden Dawn documents. In coloured versions of the Tree of Life (the Minutum Mundum), the Golden Dawn shows Malkuth as four (dirty) colours representing the elements and in some other respects sees it as the union of the four elements. I think this attribution was based on a confusion of the Sphinx, representing a combination of the elements, with the archangel of Malkuth/Earth, or over-identifying the correspondences.

my apologies for previous compatability-formatting problems- the new Word 2007 sucks!

SilvioMancini

May 7th, 2008, 03:21 PM

Tony the Tiger! He's fucking GRRRRReat!

badabellisima

May 7th, 2008, 05:19 PM

LOL! http://www.getsmileyface.com/new/cats/cat85.gif http://www.getsmileyface.com/new/cats/cat88.gif

btw- thanks Silvio for the quote info from the session between Melfi and Tony in Coldcuts (season 5, ep10):

She says to Tony "The falcon cannot hear the falconer;" which later is recounted in the episode " The Second Coming"

Like Chase said, alot of things from previous eps will come together in the last episode...

Anyone have anymore insight into Melfi's use of this line in connection to the current scene under analysis? (AJ's resurrection of the Second Coming theme at Vesuvio's)

badabellisima

May 7th, 2008, 06:07 PM

Thanks Universal Polymath, for quoting more on this exchange (in the "Error on this Page" thread from Season 5):

From Tony and Melfi's session:

As Tony rants about phone recordings and the technological "advancements" that, while meant to make life easier, only complicate matters ..., Melfi agrees: "The center cannot hold. The falcon cannot hear the falconer."

badabellisima

May 9th, 2008, 07:05 PM

Okay, more epiphanies on this scene: Here's another angle i just discovered when searching around about the "the series coming Full Circle" concept; and about how Chase said that something within the first pilot episode or first season would be concluded in the last final episode (sorry for lousy paraphrase).

SO therefore, i'm going to try to take notice of anything within the details of these individual scene analyses that might be a reflection somehow from a scene in the first ep or season, and shed more light on the meaning of this last ep; and whatever Chase was referring to.

Right off the bat- when i searched the archives on the first ep- There it was: a post from Bobc that discusses the lyrics to "Beast in Me" by Nick Lowe. Interesting that this song comes from the album titled "The Impossible Bird", 1994. A song that shows us how the Beast can be in our own selves.

SO, in this scene (yeah- i'm still stuck on literally analyzing the Vesuvio's Wake scene to death!)-- AJs quotation about the "rough beast slouching towards Bethlehem" is a direct tie-back to the very first episode's reference to The Beast in Me.

I think that one of the big stories about this ending episode is that it attempts to show the culmination of the journey we all go thru -if we pay attention- to discover the big question of: Who or what is the Rough Beast in our times? (and just who is that beast to me personally? And what am I going to do about it?). Scholars have studied this question for years, tieing it to every war and crisis. (During WWII, they said The Beast was Hitler, or the War itself, or various fads, and later, even Saddam...AJ talks about Al Qaeda; many think its Cosa Nostra or Tony).

It's a really important question, because to answer it, then we have to see how we personally relate to it, and what role we have in dealing with it; conquering it, going to war with it, forgiving it, loving it, hating it, hiding from it, embracing it. Living with it. By reflecting the answer to that question back to us, it helps us to understand our very role in the world and in our day-to-day life, in the realtime present.

Imho, one thing therapy can be good at, is to show us how often the "beast" we perceive in others, is actually the beast in ourselves. A significant and memorable leap of maturity for most of us. AJ is at that stage of still figuring that out. And I submit- Tony has successfully taken on the challenge to understand it within himself thru his journey thru therapy.

So from the first ep to the last ep- The whole show was about "the journey", and The Beast has come full circle, as evidenced in this scene.

Here's the reference:

From post by Bobc on 7-9-2007:

I hope I'm not going overboard here, but I just became aware, after watching it maybe ten times, of the song that played over the credits as The Pilot ended. Here are the lyrics to "The Beast In Me." Very interesting song Chase used to end the first episode.

"The Beast in Me"

The beast in me
Is caged by frail and fragile bonds
Restless by day
And by night, rants and rages at the stars
God help, the beast in me
The beast in me
Has had to learn to live with pain
And how to shelter from the rain
And in the twinkling of an eye
Might have to be restrained
God help the beast in me

Sometimes
It tries to kid me that it's just a teddy bear
Or even somehow managed
To vanish in the air
And that is when I must beware
Of the beast in me
That everybody knows
They've seen him out dressed in my clothes
Patently unclear
If it's New York or New Year
God help the beast in me
The beast in me

:smile: There's nothing like hearing it while you read it, so---
Listen Link:
(YouTube video set to Tony’s beastly scene’s)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AePzxokvUJc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AePzxokvUJc)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8751GEg0ow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8751GEg0ow)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA0d0-0Cvnc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA0d0-0Cvnc)

badabellisima

May 10th, 2008, 06:03 PM

One point about this scene, imo, is that it shows how not just 'the sins of the fathers (and mothers)' gets passed on to the children, but so does the journey, quest and burdens of previous generations, as well as the previous generation's questions. Sometimes i have thought it almost odd or weird that previous generations had serious questions and worries about communism- its hard now to understand the threat and wave of fear. But that was their question in their time- not mine. And not mine so much, perhaps because of the answers they came up with, or the wars they fought. They changed the question for the next generation by answering, or at least responding to, their own. i am grateful for the successful responses to major questions of previous generations that i have benefitted from- like the question of tyranny and taxation without representation that resulted in the formation of our great constitution. Or the questioning of our government during the civil rights period that resulted in new laws and protections for us all.

From the first episode of Season One, Tony's question -asking what (perhaps internal) beast slouches towards Bethlehem waiting to be born- has now, directly thru this scene, been shown to us that it has become AJ's question to answer for himself. Tony's attempts to answer it with the help of therapy, etc., was his path, and made up the backbone of the whole series, imo. So now the torch is passed on to the next generation, symbolized by AJ. (However, this doesn't relieve Tony of his own obligations to seek answers, anymore than our parents get to just drop the ball the minute we turn 18). And in the quest to answer it is what makes up AJs very life, the life of succeeding generations.

i do realize that AJ might not be thought of as able or responsible enough to take on life's really tough questions and challenges (no kidding!), but his role might be as simple as voicing the question for one of his peers to hear and wake up to, and then respond to in kind, such as at that dinner table at Bobby's wake. Each one of the people sitting at that table could be a symbol of some faction of our society and how it responds to particular problems exposed. I see AJs internalization and adoption of this question as the mark of successful parenting and education. At least at this point in the story, he's not indifferent, such as most of his peers, only looking out for what they can get out of life for themselves; --even if he does need to learn how to navigate his boat a little straighter...:smile:

turangawaewae

May 11th, 2008, 05:24 PM

When I rewatched the last series recently, it really struck me how big physically Tony was, and how he really did lumber!! I really thought at the time that the lumbering beast was Tony. Picking up on your idea of the question being passed on to AJ as to what his lumbering beast is, there was the scene where AJ came lumbering down the stairs of his house in his dressing gown, very Tony like.

badabellisima

May 11th, 2008, 05:34 PM

:icon_mrgreen: LOL!! Yeah- like Father like Son: two beasts of a feather! :icon_biggrin:

turangawaewae

May 11th, 2008, 05:37 PM

So I don't know much about this sort of thing, but through the final episodes, would Chase have requested that Tony become that huge, or did James just eat all the pies??

badabellisima

May 11th, 2008, 05:49 PM

Good question- i think someone once posted that it was indeed part of the requirements for the character in this last season. So far in the scene-by-scenes, we've seen Tony eating an orange at Carm's safehouse by the shore, and now here in this scene eating with Carm under Mount Vesuvius. There are normally lots of scenes about Tony eating, in general anyway. Kind of giving the feeling of the foraging, lumbering bear. During the part of the story where his stomach was still healing from the gunshot wound, they would have more about how he had to restrict his diet due to that. And other times they would show him aware of his weight and diet due to obvious health risks or just vanity. For Tony, i think over-eating is one of his beasts to bear! :smile:

turangawaewae

May 18th, 2008, 04:03 PM

So where were we up to in the scene by scene? Was it at the safe house??

badabellisima

June 10th, 2008, 04:39 PM

Haven't forgotten 'bout this. We are just wrapping up the scene of AJ's tirade at the dinner table at Bobby's wake. i still need to re-hear the Vivaldi- i wanted to determine which of the four season's is playing in the background for sure.

i realize i am really slow at this, and perhaps unfortunately, i am perfectly content to be so! i could spend hours mulling over and discussing every scene's detail.

btw, i wonder how long it took the writer's to finalize a scene? i once took a class on Shakespeare and we spent weeks on just one scene of Hamlet. i was in heaven!

So if anyone is too bored, but still interested enough and wants to move this along to the next scene, please do....! :smile:

dsweeney

November 14th, 2008, 11:50 AM

Has anybody else noticed the similarities between the "Made in America" and "Members Only" episodes? In 6a.1 after Eugene shoots Teddy the song "Dreaming" by Blondie is playing and the first song we hear in 6b.9 is"Denis" which was also a huge hit for Blondie,admittedly here it's by the original artist,the Delmonts maybe,but still.But more crucially in both episodes Carmella asks the family where they will have dinner that evening.These are the only two occasions in the entire show when this happens.It is usually at home or in Vesuvio's. As we know in 6b.9 they decide on Holsten's.The two episodes are like mirror images of each other.In 6a.1 a man wearing a "Members Only " jacket (Eugene) walks into a diner and shoots a guy. In 6b.9 a man wearing a Members Only jacket walks into a restaurant and......In 6a.1 the "Seven souls" monologue should be looked at very closely.There is a chilling shot of Bobby playing with his train-set eerily foreshadowing the circumstances of his death.We see Meadow described as the "guardian angel" but of course she is delayed getting into Holsten's trying to parallel park her car.We see Ray Curto described as "treachery" and we know what happens him. There are other instances of events being foreshadowed in this episode,so much so that I refer to it as an "oracle" episode.Oh,and Tony gets shot in it!

SilvioMancini

November 15th, 2008, 01:41 AM

Great post dsweeny!

I totally agree with the notion that Members Only and Made in America are meant to be a sort of Twilight Zone parallell story and also reveals the deaths of several people as you pointed out. This is not a coincidence nor is it an accident. Not to mention that the credits in the last episode mention Man in Members Only Jacket. Why?

badabellisima

November 15th, 2008, 10:33 AM

i agree great post dsweeney-however- if you read the first posts here, you'll see that this thread was created specifically for a scene-by-scene analysis of just the scenes of the last episode in order to come to some understanding via that method- applying a detailed analysis of each scene's details, in the order of how it was presented to us viewers, by comparing the details of actual dialogue, staging, music etc. Here, we are not so much jumping ahead to a conclusion about the show in general. Your post theoretically should be connected to the next scene in the thread, such as AJ's tirade at Vesuvios, or the following scene; or even connected to a previously discussed scene, such as you did with the song 'Denise'. So in that spirit, i would like to hear more analysis of what you think of in terms of the Blondie connection as an oracle to understanding the final ep 'Denise' scene (Paulie and Tony listening to it in the van, etc.). Can you or someone shed more light on how the related previous oracle episode(s) prophesies something or lends some sort of understanding to this particular final ep scene?

And just to be more clear so you won't think i don't appreciate your posts- i love them! :icon_biggrin:

Some history: at the time we created this thread, every one kept posting and arguing about their position on the ending in every single thread a conversation got started in. Every thread became a fight about someone's opinion or proof on "the ending". i don't intend for that to recur here. There are hundreds of places to post about that! If you read the posts here, you'll see that the nature of your post has mostly nothing to do with this thread- it doesn't even address the current scene. However, there are a number of threads that specifically dealt with your exact topic- which i think is fantastic. Someone else last year was going thru epis and noticed similar prophetic parallels pointing towards the final ep, just as you are doing now. But unfortunately they stopped posting lately, so i am so glad you are on it!

Once again i suggest checking out the threads for the final season, such as "Full Circle", "Finding Some Meaning in the Ending", etc. Actually- i suggested at the time that someone create a separate thread for these important points you are picking up on. Maybe you could call it "Oracle Episodes" or something to that affect. Please do start that thread, as it sounds like you have just the perfect approach to catching those connections and are so observant watching the episodes and seeing the big picture.

Meanwhile, if you want to pick up on where we are in the scene-by scene analysis and apply your skills at finding an oracle thread that points to any of the scenes that have been analyzed up to this point so far- that would be incredibly germain and exactly in the spirit of this thread! i would love to hear more about oracle scenes. :smile:

dsweeney

November 27th, 2008, 07:24 AM

Thank you so much for your encouragement bada,much appreciated and I promise I will try and take your advice on board.If I appear to people like some sort of hit-and-run terrorist causing "mayham" it's because I don't actually own a PC myself and have only limited access to one here in work and only recently found your wonderful site.
I take your point fully about keeping to the individual threads but seeing as I regard this as a personal response to you could I point out some other "fore-shadowings"in my"oracle episode" you might like?
There is a scene in said 6a.1 of Tony,alone,eating in their new favourite sea-food restaurant.He suddenly has a bout of indigestion and lightly pats himself on his stomach-exactly,EXACTLY where he is later shot by Junior.It corresponds precisely with the hole the size of a fist we graphically see when Janice visits him in the hospital.At Ray Curto's funeral,Rusty says "stand up guys like that ARE A DYING BREED".Within maybe two episodes he proves how right he is-he gets it himself,right outside his house.Most pointed of all though, I feel,is the way Tony and AJ repeat each other almost word for word.Tony exclaims "why can't I catch a break" and immediately it cuts to Ray having a heart-attack giving information on him to the Feds.In 6b.9 AJ is moaning about how his medication appears to work for others but not him-"why can't I catch a break".He then narrowly escapes death in his exploding SUV.
Again Bada,Silviomancini,if my unorthodox (ham-fisted) approach irritates people,apologies.As a newbie,I'll try to stick to format,promise.

badabellisima

November 28th, 2008, 02:13 PM

i think i missed something- is there something in this duplicate post about an analysis of a scene in the last episode? (you know- the point of this thread...). You do make interesting points, which i addressed over in your 'Oracle' thread today. :smile:

cipolle

April 2nd, 2009, 09:10 PM

Hello everybody.
When Janice visits Uncle Junior in the hospital June says something to her in italian.She doesn't understand it and when she asks the other Uncle from the farm he says he cant speak italian either.
I was wondering if theres maybe somebody here who speaks italian and has the DVDs or avis and could translate what junior says to janice in the hospital, maybe it's something that shows that he is not that dement at all.

BobbyBacala

December 31st, 2011, 01:15 PM

I've just read every post in this thread. Such a shame that it was abandoned without being finished. Some of you really touched upon some interesting stuff. I wish more people still regularly posted in this forum despite the show being over for 4 years now.