Did Carmela fail AJ?

[Rightfielder21]

When Carmela "gave" AJ to Tony, did she give him the "life"... She did say Tony was magnetic, and with AJ living with Tony he will be around it more and more... I know that Tony doesn't want that life for AJ, but if he doesn't get into college, it may very well be a possiblity... It would take alot of growing up on AJ's part though...

I guess my point is that he most likely won't but it seems like Carm, just gave up on him, and left the possiblity for it open... Discuss...

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub132.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rightf ielder21>Rightfielder21</A> at: 3/28/04 10:22 pm

[starvingkitty]

AJ's a thug. He wouldn't have gone to college, anyway. It's an uphill battle.

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[TheSopranosHBO]

I think not because we all saw how serious Tony was when he told AJ to go upstairs and do his homework.

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[aalleyne]

AJ's a thug?!? Be real. The kid's a moron, but he's also a pansy. Though he may have certain delinquent tendencies, "thug" is not the word to describe him. There's nothing tough about the kid--he's just a brat.




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[Vinnie Kudione]

Actually I think AJ living with Tony is probably what is best for AJ's future. Tony isn't going to put up with his bullshit, or give in to AJ just to get his approval or love... AJ thought he was getting a free ride when moving in with his Dad and Artie, but Tony would have none of that.

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[bushleaguer1]

I thought it was interesting how they pointed out how spoiled AJ is when they showed the family piling into the new Xterra and they included the tutor's junky old car pulling out. Really shows the contrast of how AJ has so much but doesn't really deserve it.

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[Alas1119]

Tony does NOT want AJ to become a part of the "life." AJ would never make it in that business...he's a wuss and a screw up. Not to mention a spoiled little brat.

I'm stunned that Carmela hasn't kicked his ass...I could NEVER have gotten away with talking back to my parents the way Meadow and AJ. I would have been a goner. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol">


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[cody206]

He's only 16, he has time to mature into Tony Soprano Jr. He needs some toughening up, but he could wind up living the life

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[zerokarma]

I find it quite funny how Tony and Carms divorce mirrors my uncles and aunts current divorce.

Both act exactly the same way and their kids act the same as well. It is very true to life.

I think AJ has little respect for his mother because of the divorce probably seeing it as her fault the marriage failed and why Tony has to live elsewhere. This is the same for my cousins who detest their mother for the same reason.

AJ has more respect for Tony and identifies with him easier as well. Near the end although hesitating he listens to Tony when he says to do his home work, whereas with Carm he would have ignored her.

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[zerokarma]

Now that it has been mentioned,

I think there is some foreshadowing going on here that AJ will enter the mob life.

think about it:

- his school and job prospects are terrible

- he is used to the good life and likes fancy toys like that new SUV, I doubt he wants to live without all that stuff when he is older

- Feech mentioned that Tony was SOOO scared when he was a kid robbing the game

- AJ is scared a lot with some things now but over time i can see him growing tougher

- and now that AJ is living with Tony he is going to see more and more of th mob life up closer, before he has been shielded from it but i get the feeling Tony will be more in the open about it

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[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Zerokarma, I agree with you about the foreshadowing, and it actually goes all the way back to season 1 "Downeck". Together with the "Telltale Moozadell" and "Army of One", as well as the whole parallel story of Jackie Jr. in season 3, this has been coming.

I'm not sure he will actually "enter the life". What I do have an increasing feeling about is that he will die either from a drug overdose or some related type of accident or possibly even from a one-time, misguided attempt to be a "tough guy" like his dad. At first I though the Jackie Jr. thing made this too obvious, too similar. But Tony is probably now too far behind in the parenting department to really change AJ's course in life. He talked the talk all along about how AJ should study. He ranted about the early juvenlie delinquency and blew up when junior and his mother talked fondly of Tony's similar exploits as a kid. He's said all the right things about AJ not becoming like himself. But the fact is, AJ learned a lot more from his example than from his words. That will be Tony's tragedy, in the end, I think.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub132.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flyonm elfiswall>FlyOnMelfisWall</A> at: 3/28/04 11:18 pm

[bushleaguer1]

Good points zerokarma.

The thing the stuck out with me is the fact that Tony doesn't seem like the smartest guy - note when Dr. Melfi was reading his letter....the spelling and grammatical errors she was highlighting when reading it. Tony may have been the same as AJ when growing up....a substandard student who will spend a semester at school before dropping out. I really can't see AJ surviving in college. And by next season (the final one) AJ will be in college...for however long that lasts. I could see him dropping out and asking Tony if he could work with him. He does seem to really look up to his dad.

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[jeannie417]

I read an interview last month with David Chase, and he was asked "would AJ ever get into the mob, and would Tony approve." Chase said Tony dosnt't want that for him, but if he were to get in that life he wouldn't mind and on some level encourage it. I would post a link if I could find it online but I couldn't did anyone else read this one?

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[FlyOnMelfisWall]

The Chase interview you mentioned was posted in the spoiler section some time ago. (I don't think there were any real spoilers in it, but the person posting it erred on the side of caution.) I try to stay out of there because sometimes even the thread titles give away the spoilers, but I did read that interview, and the very quote you mentioned jumped out at me.

Here's what I wrote back then in reply to the interview post:

<span style="color:navy;">That's a terrific interview, as Chase interviews almost always are. I love the man's mind. He is such an original thinker. Even when I don't agree with him, I'm impressed.:-)

I have to say, however, that I take major exception with one thing he said, namely that Tony wouldn't try to stop AJ if AJ started to take up mob life, that Tony on some level might actually welcome it. I think that is a TOTAL contradiction to what Chase very obviously conveyed throughout the four seasons, especially in episodes like "Down Neck", "Tell-tale Moozadell", "Army of One", and indeed in all the episodes dealing with the parallel circumstance of Tony as Jackie Jr.'s watchdog and part time father figure.

Sure Tony outwardly defends his mob life and angrily diverts any criticism of it to discussions about rampant corruption and immorality in other people or institutions. But deep down he knows he is a "fat f------ crook from New Jersey", and he wants his son to be BETTER than that, not just different but qualitatively, morally BETTER.

This comes through loud and clear when he angrily shouts at his mother and Uncle Junior for bragging in front of AJ about his (Tony?s) criminal exploits as a youth. It comes through loud and clear when Tony disciplines AJ for his many episodes of delinquent behavior. It comes through in his season one duck obsession, which, among other things, symbolizes his fear of rejection by his children when they learn the whole truth about what he is, a fear he would not possess if he didn?t also hope and expect that they would live their lives by an entirely different moral code. It comes through when he spends the greater part of several therapy sessions with Melfi agonizing over what his son does or doesn?t know about his mob life and how the inevitable revelation will affect him. It comes through when he tells Melfi with obvious sincerity that he is in a bind because he wants his son to be proud of him yet he doesn?t want him to BE like him, that he wants him instead to be like the guy who made a fortune by inventing the little ties that go on the end of salamis. It comes through when Tony totally flips out over AJ?s expulsion -- afraid that his son is learning more from his example than from his words, that he his headed toward a life without discipline or respect for authority (read respect for LAW) -- and is set to enroll him in a military school to present him with the kind of upright male role model that he knows he himself cannot be. It comes through in that same episode when he talks with Melfi about what he wants for his kids, that what?s important is that they be ?far away from me? . . . and he wasn?t talking about geography.

He even gets tearful in that session with Melfi, blaming AJ?s problems on genes, which Melfi seizes on. ?When we blame our genes, we?re really blaming ourselves, and that?s what we should be talking about.? She knew that Tony?s upset was partially grounded in his belief that he had been a poor moral example for his son and that that?s the reason AJ was stealing exams and sacramental wine and vandalizing school property and eventually getting expelled.

Tony?s last anguished comment to Melfi was, ?how are we gonna save this kid (AJ),? which revealed that Tony?s concerns went beyond his desire for AJ to simply turn out ?better? than he (Tony) did. Specifically, he fears that AJ lacks the fitness to survive in the mob, ala Jackie Jr., and is likely to similarly ?end up in Buton with his face blown off.?

That second, fatal fear alone is grounds enough for a total rejection of Chase?s statement. Too bad the interviewer wasn?t armed with the knowledge or courage to confront him on it.</span>

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[ObservingEgo]

In handing AJ over to his father, Carmella may have unwittingly given her son over to "the life." However, Carm's maternal intentions and behaviors have been solid and purposeful...she was more than the "good enough" mother to both of her children. She was nevertheless ill-equipped to deal with the following issues in AJ's adolescence:

-His own low esteem coupled with teen peer pressure

-Rich kid alienation/countered with overindulgence

-His need to measure up to/identify with extremely
powerful father

-And the confluence of her developmental crisis with
AJ's adolescent stuff

This is sad. As Fly has pointed out, Carm is truly a tragic figure. The tragedy is all the more compounded by her ongoing efforts to remain virtuous....



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[SofiaGiovanna]

AJ is his father's son more than he is his mother's son...in the same way, I think, that Meadow is daddy's girl.

For me the essence of Tony is that he is not amoral, but he is hedonistic and that is his strongest urge...that and the fact that I don't think he can be "alone" with himself.

Take AJ and "The kids at school will give me Sh*t about the ozone layer and the SUV, but I'm taking it anyway"...his urge for a cool ride overcomes his ecological sense. He's looking out for himself.

Same with Tony...the conciliatory gesture to Artie Bucco
was one way to not be alone...he's got a buddy
to hang out at home with now.

AJ has learned to look out for number one. Same as dad. Same as mom, too, now that I think of it, with her
"things" that she substitutes for a fully functional relationship. The difference is, Carmela is better able to verbalize those feelings of fear and failure, or more willing to.


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[sant430]

.......does anyone think Carmella might be going through menopause? The futile way she sent AJ to Tony along with the Botox brochures seem to point that way.

I also noticed how her argument with AJ and the method of arguing seemed to parallel arguements between Tony and his mother...


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[Jager]

http://204.127.198.24/~jagermeister79/sopranos/aj-superglued.jpg

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[aalleyne]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I'm stunned that Carmela hasn't kicked his ass...I could NEVER have gotten away with talking back to my parents the way Meadow and AJ. I would have been a goner. <hr></blockquote>

THANK YOU so much, Alas1119!! I've been saying the same thing for weeks on this board now. Nice to have those sentiments echoed.

In a certain very sad sense, the two kids' bratty and disrespectful attitude towards their parents--and, at times, other elders--is really their parents' fault, as it almost always is in real life. The time to purge that revolting kind of attitude out of children is when they're very, VERY young. From a very early age, they need to be made to understand that they must never, NEVER speak or act disrespectfully toward their elders--especially not their parents. They must also be made to understand that there will be severe consequences if they ever do.

Take me, for example. If I ever so much as rolled my eyes or muttered something under my breath to one of my parents, I'd be seriously roughed up--probably by my older brothers, for that matter. But more importantly--MOST importantly--I was taught from a very young age that it is of the essence that young people pay all due respect, deference and obedience to their elders, and why so. It is because of that upbringing that would I never behave the way AJ and Meadow do; it's also because of that upbringing that I'm even registering any outrage at all over the kids' attitudes--which, as far as I know, has been a relatively rare occurrence on this board in general.

So really, Tony and Carmela both have only themselves to blame for their kids' disgusting lack of respect for their elders. Poor parenting, straight up.

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[aalleyne]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>.......does anyone think Carmella might be going through menopause? The futile way she sent AJ to Tony along with the Botox brochures seem to point that way.<hr></blockquote>

Hell, I think she must be going through menopause because of her age alone! Carm and Tony are, I think, around 43 years old or so right now. (I say that because I'm pretty sure I remember Tony telling Dr. Melfi he was 42 years old in the 4th season premiere.)

What's more, Tony and Meadow discussed Carmela's menopause in, I think, the second-to-last episode of the 4th season. Yes, it was the second-to-last episode--"Eloise".

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