Who would have had Tony Killed?

[TheBing]

On the assumption that Tony Soprano was killed at Holstin's, who would have been behind it? Let us look at some who others here have suggested and some original ideas.

Phil's guys - People loyal to Phil and his predecesors may still want to get even for the murder of Phil, especially as done in front of his wife, grandchildren, and his head being crushed (as if the gunshot on the back of the head wouldn't have blown his head apart). That could include Butchie for his own selfish reasons, for other NYC gang guys hit and so on and to put NJ on notice that they are subservent to Phils old side of the NYC family.

Patsy - This was suggested by at least one other person in detail. He had the motive, knowlege where Tony would be (via his kid and Meadow) and knew with Phil dead that Tony had backed off some of his hiding. Tony had his brother killed in mob business. We know Patsy considered confronting or even killing Tony before about it. He somehow escapes getting hit when Sil is shot into a coma. He is very uneasy with Tony as shown at the meeting with his wife, Tony, Carm, Meadow and Patsy's kid about the engagement and wedding plans. He could find someone who owes him bit to do or get the person to do the hit.

Janice - Bobby is dead because of Tony, she is such a greedy jerk and feels Tony always hated her, so why not arrange for his death. That would be the ultimate revenge. She probably could get enough $$'s to pay for a hit man.

Ada's mother - Remote, but perhaps she finally gets it that her daughter was ordered killed by Tony.

Little Carmine - Despite the connections to NJ and AJ working for one of his companies, he could easily just made a deal to keep NYC family peace.

Others in Tony's mob group - Several besides Patsy could have wanted Tony dead as Tony was close to getting nailed by the Feds and could have talked on them as part of a deal. Tony also led to too many of their group ending up dead within them or from other mobsters.

Anybody else want to add to or debate this list?

[HagensBing1977]

Paulie- at this point Sil is in a coma and he'd be the potential new boss in NJ, assuming that NY doesn't annex the territory.

Georgie- As many times as Tony embarassed him and/or injured him at The Bing, this likelihood seems as plausible as some

The Cubans- Hey, they played a part in the NJ business dealings during the months leading up to the finale, so maybe they wanted to get even w/ the Italians since GF II. Plus, the Kennedy/Cuban/Soprano/assasination ending seems perfect!

Carmella- She was looking at vacation homes on the internet in NJ and is fed up... she wants to cash in on Tony's life insurance policy and end the life she currently leads because she is constantly in fear


THE RUSSIAN- Its so anti-Chase that it's right up Chase's alley!

[Mrhockeynut]

Not to be forgotten as the possible orchestrator of the "final bullet" (if that was indeed the case) was Butchie.

Butchie was heavily in favor of Tony's removal during Phil's original sit down in Brooklyn.

Despite his successful outing of Sil and Bobby, Phil was pissed at him because of Tony's lack of demise. His frustration with Phil's inability to compromise during his phone call might have prompted him to "broker a deal" with Tony knowing full well, if Tony clipped Phil and then he clipped Tony, he'd run NY and Jersey.

[jmag]

Not to be forgotten as the possible orchestrator of the "final bullet" (if that was indeed the case) was Butchie.

Butchie was heavily in favor of Tony's removal during Phil's original sit down in Brooklyn.

Despite his successful outing of Sil and Bobby, Phil was pissed at him because of Tony's lack of demise. His frustration with Phil's inability to compromise during his phone call might have prompted him to "broker a deal" with Tony knowing full well, if Tony clipped Phil and then he clipped Tony, he'd run NY and Jersey.

none of this stuff would happen.

[JoeyBagadonuts]

none of this stuff would happen.


Agreed. The other 4 NY families wouldn't stand for it.

[gamecock]

I need to go on record first as saying that I do not believe Tony died at the end.

Moving forward if he did get killed it could only be by someone from NY. I think that the rest are highly unlikely and do not follow the flow of the rest of the show.

Patsy, Paulie, whoever.... no way.

I don't think that NY would follow in suite either. This is one of the key reasons I do not feel that Tony died. I feel that he was heading down a road of trouble with the Law. This would not end suddenly in black.

[Johny Foulmouth]

Haha Carmella? Yeah right she staged a hit, having the father of her children splattered in front of them leaving them mentally scared and fucked up for the rest of their lives, she didn't think suicidal AJ would mind seeing his dad's brain.

Janice? No way, who is she goona leech of with Tony gone? And why should she blame Tony for NY killing Bobby?

Patsi, I'm tired of saying how unlikely it is that he and the New york guys planned on shooting at each other missing only by inches. Dude ran for his life when they came for Sylvio and he would have killed those guys if they hadn't ducked in time.

-Paulie, Naw. He's getting old and scared of death (read: character development) and I bought that whole thing not wanting to move up the ranks. Why would he go looking for Carlo knowing he wouldn't find him?

-Lil Carmine, why? Tony never had directly beef with him and he backed out of the major beef with Phil cause he didn't have what it takes so him getting Tony clipped makes no sense to me.

-Ade's mother.. where would that drunken old woman have gotten money enough to whack a mob boss from?

IF he was whacked, it had to be NY.. I dunno, the whole thing about Carlo turning state witness over a little X bothers me? Thats enough to give up your entire life and go into hiding? over some x??? I have friends who have been pinched with X who work steady jobs and are living normal. Is it really that strict in the US??

[Man-In-MembersOnly-Jacket]

Butchie hired Man In Members Only Jacket to kill Tony.

[Mikey]

OK, first we should forget anyone that is not in the mafia. It's been made very clear that wacking a boss isnt something just anyone will do, even to the point that Phil (5 families boss) refused to do it in 6A. Wacking a boss is pretty much suicide unless your very high up in the ranks.

So IMO that eliminates:

carmella/janice/georgie/the cubans/ainds mother and even probably little carmine.

then we have Patsy, who id ont believe would have the balls, respect or backing to do it.

Pauly I dont think would ever want to be a boss either.

So this leaves NY ... now im not saying Butch or even Phil's family imparticular... but Tony killed a boss of the 5 families, and wacking a 5 famillies boss needs to always be sanctioned by the commision. (even John Gotti had a bounty out on him after he killed Castellano but it got lifted after a failed car bomb)

I think realistically IF Tony got killed, it was probably sanctioned by a boss somewhere in one of the families in NY that was maybe anticipating a big war between NJ and NY not realising that Butch gave the OK.

As far as it being Butch that wanted to capitalize, I would possibly agree except for the fact that on the phone with Phil he seemed to make it clear that he actually did want to reach out to Tony and not kill him after all.

[dsweeney]

First could I just say that I don't think it really matters who had Tony killed.It could be anybody.The lives he has ruined,families of people he killed,the enemies he has made.The list is endless but I think the point is that Tony himself wouldn't know.Just like us. As Bobby said in their world,"it's always out there".
But just as a point of interest,another possible that I would at least consider is someone nobody seems to have mentioned.Hesh.Tony borrowed 200k from Hesh and then stalls on paying him back.Hesh wonders whether Tony might have him killed rather than pay him his money.He says to his son-in-law,"I go to people like him to deal with people like him".Maybe that's exactly what Hesh did-went to Members Only guy to take out Tony before Tony had him taken out. Something worth considering I think but like I said,I think the whole point is that it could be anybody and Tony wouldn't know until it's too late.

[SilvioMancini]

Tony paid Hesh back right after his Girlfriend Renata dies I think in the episode Chasing It. So Tony had no debt with Hesh yet Heshs' quote that you mentioned is a good one.

[dsweeney]

Cheers for that Silviomancini,you're probably right.But it is at least possible that Hesh had the hit already in motion and that with the trauma he suffers,and he clearly is distraught at Ronata's death,that he doesn't call it off.A bit of a reach I know but still...

[jesse100]

The only viable answer would be NY. It could have been the Lupertazzi s but as a previous poster said any of the other NY families could have based on the Genevese contract on John Gotti after wacking Paul Castalana. You don't just wack bosses unless it is sanctioned. (I know I mis-spelled those names.) None of the others makes any sense at all.

Jesse

[conkom]

Welcome jesse100 and your theory is valid and credible and probably likely.

If one subscribes to the view that Tony was whacked or 86ed then it stands to reason that the heads of other Families would have sanctioned the hit.

Perhaps they also annointed someone within the Dimeao/Soprano Family to take over from Tony (which explains in part Patsy's behaviour. He might have been secretly communicating with the heads).

It has been argued by myself and others in the past that in the end it's all a moot point. I think that the message that Chase wanted to convey was that Tony, a mafia don was killed, or would (sooner or later) be killed and whoever did plan it, was only incidental to the denoument that this was Tony's fate.

[richjcrouch]

Would a hit on Tony have to be sanctioned by the 5 families?

I thought they were set up to be self governing, and Jersey would fall outside of that remit.

Tony was a boss, but he wasn't a 5 families boss.

A hit on Phil would have had to have had the agreement of the other 4 families, but not Tony.

It is feasible, although not something I subscribe to, that the other 4 families were responsible for the hit on Tony, as killing Phil would have been seen as 'illegal' without their approval.

For the record, I don't think Tony was killed that night.

[dsweeney]

I think it's Phil who says Carmine regarded the Sopranos as a " glorified crew". Nothing more than that. So I don't think the normal " rules " would apply. Besides, having themselves taken out Phil, in front of his family mind, why should Tony's crew be treated so special ?

Anyway, as has been said already it's irrelevant. Who knows ? Maybe Angie found out what happened to Pussy, maybe the Russian made it out alive ? Or, quite possibly IMO, Feech figured out what really happened with his parole violation and the hand Tony had in it. Look at his face on being driven back to jail. Jesus, I wouldn't want to be the first thing he meets when he gets there. The point is, "it's always out there". Straight from Bobby's lips. Even in a model-train shop. Even in an ice cream parlour.

[conkom]

I think that it was indicated that though the DiMeo family was not part of New York that there were "business connections" with the Lupertazzi family. And we have seen respectful formal dinners between all the families which included Tony Soprano. So he did have a seat at the table and therefore was bound by their rules.

It is still conceivable that they sanctioned the hit.

However dsweeny's Feech theory is also quite convincing and it makes more than sufficient sense that some plotting was occurring from the inside. It is also conceivable that the law firm of Patrick Parisi might have also been communicating with Feech.

What all this strongly signals that there were machinations going on all around Tony (and he was unaware of) which made him hunted game - a sitting duck or a trapped tiger, so to speak (and whichever you prefer).

[jesse100]

Long shot but if Junior was faking (like Gigante did in real life) then maybe it was something he would have done.

J

[conkom]

Not a long shot at all. It was always in the back of mind that Junior might have been putting on an act, although he was very convincing, like the time he was wandering the streets looking for his brother Johnny Boy. I don't know if anyone else actually put him on their list of likely suspects.

However the Gigante angle adds another degree of reality to the proceedings.

In fact the list of suspects almost turns Tony's fate into a Murder On The Orient Express scenario.

Therefore it would be more prudent to say who had Tony killed is less important to the final resolution than the understanding that he was killed. The infamous anagram does stipulate an anonymous "a man" was responsible for the killing. It seems that Chase wanted to leave that, at least, open ended.

[conkom]

Long shot but if Junior was faking (like Gigante did in real life) then maybe it was something he would have done.

J

I know that I might be seeming to neutralise the "whodunnit" issue but it is worth being reminded that Patsy's twin brother, who was killed on Tony's orders, was part of Junior's crew.

[richjcrouch]

The infamous anagram does stipulate an anonymous "a man" was responsible for the killing.

Objection! This is pure conjecture stated as fact.

[dsweeney]

Over-ruled! It is a FACT that the anagram states " a man" does the killing. Whether you think the anagram merits serious consideration or not is another matter.

[Detective Hunt]

Let's not argue "facts" about something not included in the actual action of the show, and certainly not in this thread. That's not what the direction of this thread is about given the thread title.

[conkom]

Objection! This is pure conjecture stated as fact.

I am not sure what is wrong about speculating about a work of fiction and what the author might have meant about an ostensibly ambiguous scene.

Does a "pure conjecture" mean that one is making a wild improbable guess with no connection to the matter discussed?

The question that heads this thread clearly asks, "Who would have had Tony killed?"

What is definite is that we do not know who this alleged killer is and who might have hired this alleged killer to commit the alleged act.

There are some very good guesses as to whom he or they might be.

If it was the intention of the creator of the series, David Chase, to have his fictional creation Tony Soprano (and perhaps some members of his family) to be killed then the best available answer would be "a man".

The fact that it is also mentioned in the "infamous" anagram is purely incidental.

[richjcrouch]

Over-ruled! It is a FACT that the anagram states " a man" does the killing. Whether you think the anagram merits serious consideration or not is another matter.

I like it!

All disputes should be solved this way!

[richjcrouch]

Back to who theoretically would have had Tony shot, I would like to suggest that it was a retaliatory hit from the '5 families' for an unsanctioned hit on one of their 5 bosses.

I don't think they would have let this go.

[dsweeney]

Can we be sure it is an unsanctioned hit though ? How do we know that the other families didn't give the go-ahead ? Butchie won't go so far as to actually give Phil up but he clearly tells Tony to " do what you gotta do ". Now I would doubt if Butchie would sell out his boss without having the backing of the other families. Remember when Ritchie, in cahoots with Jun, tried to move against Tony with another family and they wouldn't go for it ? Can't think of his name but the point is "Ritchie couldn't sell it, he didn't have enough respect ". So I would venture the hit on Phil was actually agreed by the other families, Phil at this point being totally unreasonable and bad for business. Butchie and the consigliere appear to be sick of it at this stage and obviously feel they can do business with T. and get rid of Phil.
I would favour the notion that it is something more left-field, a bit more obscure. Feech ordering the hit from his jail cell. Or an earlier idea I mentioned, that of Hesh being terrified Tony was going to whack him rather than pay him the k200 he owes him. I quoted before the great line from Hesh to his son-in-law; " I go to guys like him to DEAL with guys like him". Hesh, genuinely fearing for his life, ( when Tony and Bobby call to his house, it's clearly meant in some way to intimidate him IMO ), could set the hit in motion. Then, out of the blue, his beloved Renata dies in her sleep. He is clearly beside him self with grief and even though Tony at this point grudgingly hands over the money Hesh is beyond caring. It's at least feasible the hit was now in motion.

There is of course the slim possibility that Furio was behind it. Faint heart never won fair maiden and all that. Tony of course already has a contract on HIM so that's another motive as well.

[aprilemoney]

If Tony was killed in Holstens.

I think someone in NY would be a prime suspect.

Even though at the "sit-down", it appears Butchie is ok with idea of NJ killing Phil. I would argue that Butchie,(underboss) of Phil's crew, and a few other associates are only a couple close associates making that critical decision. Remember that Phil probably had 3 or more caporegime reporting to him. With Phil being killed..this opens up the boss's seat.

Maybe a few capo's don't respect Butchie for allowing the hit on Phil and maybe Butchie was next to be killed.

Maybe one the capos is making a move to become boss of NY and killing Tony shows his decisiveness.

The other crews think Butchie's decision was weak! Never allow a hit the "Boss" of your family! They demand Tony's head!

Obv. their are a number of scenarios that could take place given how this "war" between Tony & Phil ended. But giving the timeline, if Tony was killed, it resulted from this NY/NJ conflict

[jesse100]

I am now intrigued more with the Jun/Patsy angle. Not only did Patsy work for Jun but his twin was wacked on orders from T!

Jesse

[jesse100]

Also, with regards to the sanctioning business. It would seem that most of the rules were being broken anyway. Tony certainly wasn't consulting other families and we know Phil wasn't. The Lupertazzi family was already in anarchy to begin with. Also, when was the last time that the "commission" allowed family on family violence anyway? Not much precedent for it. This was apparently two families with no regard for the "rules" or sanctioning and it was all about revenge and bloodlust. This was Chases way of showing that the Mafia of today is a mess compared to yesteryear.

I still lean towards a Lupertazzi hit on T. I also think it could have been Jun or Patsy directed.

Jesse

[dsweeney]

As I have mentioned elsewhere I personally believe Jun's condition is absolutely geniune and in no way faked so I would rule him out in any involvement in a hit on Tony. The whole question of Patsi and his twin would be a real contender for me except for the thing that was discussed before. The shooting of Sil outside the Bing. There is no question but that Patsi is running for his life and is only lucky he didn't get hit in the hail of gunfire along with Sil. There is no way,IMO, Patsi has flipped to New York.

Having said that of course, what we're assuming happened in Holsten's may not have had anything to do with the war with Phil. ( This is actually my take on it , that the idea is " it's always out there", you "never hear it when it happens" and it 's over before you hit the ground and the threat can come from anywhere). It is entirely possible that Patsi, realising that with Bobby dead, Chris dead and Sil in a coma, this is his moment to strike back at Tony for killing his twin brother. "Revenge is a dish best served cold". But I say again, I think Patsi is " on side " for real and not gunning for revenge. But it would be a great tale of revenge no doubt and another example of Tony's " blind spot" in relation to the people closest to him that he has fucked over all these years.

[Don Antonio]

Hello guys my first post on this forum (which i have really enjoyed reading through, thank you!!).

Before i saw the last episode i always thought that Vitos ex lover Jonny Cakes (REAL NAME?) was going to murder Tony,as we see many references to Tony being the devil (he is playing cards at one point and wins a hand with three sixes,666) and in the episode where vito leaves jonny we see jonny in bed reading a book callled The Devil (he's reading up on Tony?) and in the last scene we see the cook in holstens cooking sausages which always reminded me of Jonny Cakes.

So IMO (and i am prepared to be proven wrong with any contradictory evidence) Tony doesnt die in holstens, goes on trial (where possibly Meadow fnds out sum of the horrors her father has commited) and as a result gets a lot of press coverage which Jonny Cakes reads, and findsout how Vito was brutally murdered, assumuing its tony Jonny goes to new jersey to kill tony, which i think would be a nice irony for Tony to be killed for something he never actually did, after fucking so many peoples lives up.

What do you guys think?

[dsweeney]

Welcome to the site Don. It's a novel theory at least, I haven't heard it mentioned before. One thing strikes me though, weren't the last words spoken by Johnny cakes to Vito something like " don't ever call again, I don't want to hear from you ever again" ? Something along those lines anyway ? Hardly the lovesick Romeo. And how would he even know about Tony Soprano ? All the papers mentioned was that he had mob connections who wanted to live an openly gay lifestyle. No more specific than that.

[Don Antonio]

Thnx for the welcome dsweeney, i agree jonny and vito left it on bad terms but i was thinking more that as a result of tony being on trial there would be a lot of press coverage and that one of the charges against tony would be vitos murder and the horrific way it was carried out, that kind of thing would likely be given a lot of attention by the press and jonny (or someone else in the town who knew vito could tell him ) could become aware of it and think that tony really did have something to do with vitos death.
Anyway not married to the idea just thought it would be an interesting take on tonys fate.

[badabellisima]

Actually, i think your idea is very interesting. All anyone seems to talk about is how Tony could only have been killed at Holsten's and who would have done it there. i hardly ever hear anyone posting about his actual pending trial, which is a definite assumption about the future life for Tony according to the script. And no doubt lots of things will come to light at that trial if we consider (as i do) that Tony may well live past that night of the last Finale scene at the diner.

Since other people were involved in Vito's murder besides Phil, it may be tougher to pin it on Tony. i'm trying to remember what Tony's alibi that night might have been. Since they were going after him anyway, it actually could be set up to pin it on Tony. Not sure if Jonny Cakes would be that revengeful however, seemed like a different sort of personality- a nice guy at heart, a good person.

[dsweeney]

Fair comment but the title of this thread is "Who would have had Tony killed ?", so.... If people want to speculate as to other scenarios that's fine, just not in this thread.

[Don Antonio]

Your quite right dsweeney, i didnt realise till after i first posted that this thread was just for theories based on the assumption tony got whacked that night.

[badabellisima]

i figured by the title it was fair game to discuss other possibilites- but the first post does specify that one night at Holsten's...so Don Antonio- please feel free to continue the discussion in another thread or make a new one- there are other past threads that would serve the purpose. And please don't feel like anyone wants to shut you down...your ideas are good ones and welcome.

[zep41]

i dont know man -- i dont think its as easy as T just got a bullet in the head in Holstens.

But if he did, I think we have to rule out that it was a mob-related hit...like an ordered hit. First of all these guys do not involve the family of any made guy. Its like an unwritten rule --- you dont go after a made guy's parents, siblings, wife, children, etc. Every hit we have ever seen in Sopranos (and correct me if I'm wrong) on a MADE guy has not been in the presence of the family. Ever. If NY was going to whack Tony, it would NOT have been done in front of his son, daughter, and wife (thats just way too unbeleiveable)--- nor would it have been done in such a crowded place for that matter.

In my mind--- if we are assuming Tony was shot at Holstens, we can rule out that it was a mob hit.

[jesse100]

You forget that Tony just had Phil whacked in front of his wife and grand kids. The rule book had been thrown out the window by both these families. It would have been "justice" for (at least some) in the Lupertazzi family to have whacked T this way.

Jesse

[cipolle]

I was always thinking, if Tony died, then Phils wife(Patricia?) might be behind it.
It's exactly the same car which ran earlier over Phils head that now passes behind Meadow right before she enters Holstens.
I mean, why would somebody who arranged the final scene so carefully, use exactly the very same car right there?Can't really be slacking or coincidence imho.
When you look at it, we see how she urges Phil to kill Vito and when she describes the da Vinci code as 'hideous, hideous Book' she looks a bit like a maniac also.
Maybe Tony just doesn't have it with the widows?His mother behind the first attempt on him, we see Angie in an intersection when Junior shoots him, Eugenes (Members only Jacket) wife wants him to put a bullet in Tonys head, this all might peak now into Phils wife having him clipped.
Last part about the widows is of course how i feel being carried, but the Ford car part in that scene seemed a bit odd to me.

[carpetbeggar]

Agreed. The other 4 NY families wouldn't stand for it.

A lot of the stuff in this show "wouldn't happen" but it did. I find it plausible that NY set Tony up to have him "clipped." They put Tony at ease by letting him get rid of another problem of their's, Phil. Phil took too much stuff too personally and for whatever other unexplained reasons wanted him gone and someone else to run the family. Tony thinks everything is back to normal, but yet NY gets him at the diner in the same way Tony had Phil done...in front of his family. Maybe NY didn't appreciate the way Tony hit Phil in front of his wife and grandkids so they decided to take out Tony the same way.
I could see NY seeing Tony getting a little too big for his britches as the boss of what they perceive as a "glorified crew" standing up and having too many problems with the LUPERTAZZI FAMILY. Remember he had some pretty big disagreements with the last three bosses of the family(Carmine, Sack and Phil) and whoever the new boss was (Butchie, whoever)that is taking over the reins of the family doesn't want the same problems during their tenure. Why not put more of a puppet boss in charge of the North Jersey family, someone who will be NY's lap dog, keep their family in order and not create problems like Tony did.

[carpetbeggar]

Just to add also, maybe NY found out about Carlo "flipping" and feel that one of Tony's top capos turning state's witness would surely mean the end of Tony and they didn't want the feds to give Tony a chance of saving himself by cooperating also.

[CM Diddy]

Interesting ideas, want to post one tidbit and see if any lurkers think its a possibility.

There is alot of resembelance between the Holsteins scene and Tony's favorite godfather scene in the resturant. The coming-out-of-the-bathroom-hit murder plan, the whole Best veal/best onion rings similarity, etc.

So. In the Godfather, Tonys favorite scene is a "revenge" scene, at least imo. Michael wants to kill those who have hurt/still intend on hurting Vito Corleone.

What candidates would still be left following this train of thought? Am I grasping way too hard at this?

[cipolle]

what about Carm?
Ginnis example showed Carm would end up with nothing if Tony got indicted.