Series Coming Full Circle

[madribub]

Now that the series is finished, can we elaborate more on how the series came full circle? I understand the ending was taken from various episodes, but Chase said there was a specific theme, idea, plot thread etc. from the first season that he would be addressing in the last season. I'm still scratching my head.

[chaseisgod]

Now that the series is finished, can we elaborate more on how the series came full circle? I understand the ending was taken from various episodes, but Chase said there was a specific theme, idea, plot thread etc. from the first season that he would be addressing in the last season. I'm still scratching my head.

I apologize for being so grim, but I think the messages or themes were unmistakable:

1. You are what you are. Trying to change is -- for 99 percent of us -- futile. In fact, you'll probably get punished for the attempt. See Gene, Vito, et. al.

2. America is in decline in every way imaginable.

3. Nothing lasts. Everything turns to shit eventually.

4. Psycho-therapy is a big jerk off.

5. Everybody lies to everyone else, but mostly to themselves.

Those are the points that were hammered home clearly. No symbolism or interpretation required. It's all there.

[Detective Hunt]

I apologize for being so grim, but I think the messages or themes were unmistakable:

1. You are what you are. Trying to change is -- for 99 percent of us -- futile. In fact, you'll probably get punished for the attempt. See Gene, Vito, et. al.

2. America is in decline in every way imaginable.

3. Nothing lasts. Everything turns to shit eventually.

4. Psycho-therapy is a big jerk off.

5. Everybody lies to everyone else, but mostly to themselves.

Those are the points that were hammered home clearly. No symbolism or interpretation required. It's all there.
I'm not sure I agree with numbers 3 through 5 (at least exactly) but certainly 1 & 2 are major themes of the entire series and points hammered home by the final season (at least in certain ways.)

If anything, the final season and finale certainly bring the show/family back to where they were in season one (with little to no change whatsoever except age.)

[HagensBing1977]

Going back to the original inquiry of the thread- Didn't Chase indicate that there would be information from the pilot episode that would be settled or resolved in the last episode?

I might be paraphrasing what Chase said. Can somebody clear this up?

[Detective Hunt]

Going back to the original inquiry of the thread- Didn't Chase indicate that there would be information from the pilot episode that would be settled or resolved in the last episode?

I might be paraphrasing what Chase said. Can somebody clear this up?
I think CIG and I have both spoken to that, actually. It's not so much something was cleared up except for that psychiatry won't work for a guy like Tony. It is certainly resolved that the attempt at change by Tony was and has been a failure. All that was set up in the pilot and resolved in the finale with the middle portion explaining why that is the case.

[chaseisgod]

Going back to the original inquiry of the thread- Didn't Chase indicate that there would be information from the pilot episode that would be settled or resolved in the last episode?

I might be paraphrasing what Chase said. Can somebody clear this up?

I think -- not positive, but think -- that Chase said there was some sort of plot strand from Season One that they might return to, not necessarily Episode One. I don't know what it was.

Some folks have speculated that in, Ep. 1, when Meadow argues that she had to wait for Patrick to get done swimming, that was a reference to Patrick Parisi. Sounds just like more rampant speculation to me, tho.

[Detective Hunt]

I think -- not positive, but think -- that Chase said there was some sort of plot strand from Season One that they might return to, not necessarily Episode One. I don't know what it was.

Some folks have speculated that in, Ep. 1, when Meadow argues that she had to wait for Patrick to get done swimming, that was a reference to Patrick Parisi. Sounds just like more rampant speculation to me, tho.
Yeah, that's so minuscule, I'd doubt it. I don't recall that something would be cleared up as much as brought back to the forefront as it was in season one, but I could be recalling that wrong myself.

[map66]

Posted a version of this earlier, and admittedly starting to have my whole doubts on it, but here's one theory for the finale that does bring things full circle and relater to the first episode:


One possibility for the final scene is that it's a panic attack/blackout shot from Tony's perspective, which would bring the series nicely full circle to it's beginning, when he waits in Melfi's lobby to discuss his first blackout. Notice how increasing fidgety he becomes, his visible paranoia/anxiety/ his weird eye motions, and one can almost sense his heart beating faster as the scene progresses (or maybe that's just the viewer's heart...). Meadow's parallel parking could even be read as a metaphor for what's going on in Tony's head at the moment.

Also the various triggers of panic attacks in the final scene or the immediate previous ones:

1. Meat: shots of it frying, Tony staring a couple eating a meat sandwich, the steak reference to AJ: actually it seems whenever Tony isn't suspiciously eying someone, he's eying meat. Finger chopping?

2. Family: enough said, but one emphasis of the final scenes is on Tony losing his immediate family leaving , from Meadow and her birth control to the already gone Junior (which also might strengthen the memories of the finger chopping in the meat store), as well as the potential of Tony himself being severed from his family due to his grand jury inditement. Seems more then enough triggers here. Further Meadow's sexuality through the birth control reference evokes the panic attack in the third season with her black boyfriend.

3. The ducks: the scene of Tony in the back yard looking into trees and not finding the ducks, at least some parallel to the trigger in the pilot. As well, the meeting with the lawyer and the unperforming ketchup bottle is a castration reference if there ever was one, bringing out the other aspect of the ducks dream.


If the last scene is a buildup to a blackout from Tony's perspective, then one could see the Member's only guy and the unidentified black males as merely Tony's own internal mounting anxiety (as far as hitmen go, all of these figures seem rather unthreatening after all...) Then at the final moment, the audience blacks out simultaneously with Tony. Tony survives, but is the same psychological wreck he's always been. Quite possibly, the first scene of a hypothetical next episode could be him sitting in the lobby on a new therapist's office, waiting to describe his day leading up to his blackout... Full circle.

In addition, the season repeatedly emphasizes that he hasn't been suffering panic attacks: it would seem almost strange not have one final one, for them to just go away, given their centrality to the show from the first episode.

Also in support would be various of Chase's comments. Everything is in the final scene is there for the viewer to see, nothing is left out (to paraphrase Chase): both the triggers are there, and the attack itself is shown through the blackout. Further Chase commented that the final episode would relate back to the first, and, of course, Tony's blacking out is rather central to the pilot.

Other bits: the unidentified black males could be a reference to his cover story on the panic attack that caused him to miss Tony B.'s arrest.

Finally, and this I'm not sure of, but the panic attack that Tony's father had (Season 3?), did that involve him cracking his head on a juke box (or was it a cigarette machine)?

Again, just one read of the final scene...

[khristmaskathy]

A lot of people speculate that the onion rings, in addition to being symbolic of communion, stand for "coming full circle" because of their shape. "It goes on and on and on..."

By the way, sales of onion rings have risen considerably since the last episode of The Sopranos was shown :)


This website is great and I always enjoy reading the posts . I have been to other Sopranos websites and I can honestly tell you : they don't hold a candle to this one. Thanks ,Chase Lounge, for giving the fans a place to "meet".

[djui5]

What's interesting about this to me is that Chase wanted the ending to be 30 seconds of black. When you submit a tape for broadcast on major networks, you have to have a 30 second leader of just black on the tape. I thought possibly the 30 seconds of black would be closing some circle...

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

map66, I think your proposal is very much one worth considering and makes an awful lot of sense.

I have to say that I didn't find Tony manifesting any normal precursors to a panic attack in the closing moments of that episode, but it's no more way out IMO to think he suddenly passed out than to think that he died (or happily finished his meal and went home, for that matter). And the failure of Tony to have a panic attack since Uncle Junior shot him was certainly a curiosity brought up on the show. Given all that transpired in season 6B, I think you either have to conclude that Tony underwent a true character reformation -- in the negative direction -- this season and has thus eliminated the psychic conflicts that once fueled his panic attacks, or, indeed, he was overdue for a recurrence.

Certainly the visit to Junior shook him to the core, as, when Junior could only offer "that's nice" to Tony's reminder that he once "ran North Jersey", Tony, suddenly and with a deeply disturbed look on his face, got up and walked briskly away. The Holsten's scene was the very next scene. Very plausible in my mind that that event could have precipitated a new wave of anxiety attacks, although, again, I didn't see much physical evidence of it in the diner.

[madribub]

So with all this speculation regarding the "full circle", is this just one more of the multitude of ambiguities left to us viewers or was Chase just yanking our chains? Or was it so subtle that most of us missed it?

[HagensBing1977]

I guess the "remember the good times" comment by AJ could be considered one way that they brought it full circle.

Another one might be Tony's warning to AJ that your friends will disapoint you in the end but your family is what you can count on.

Perhaps the "everything turns to shit" statement might be noteworthy as well, since the onion rings need to be digested, etc at some point.

[watcher]

I dont see the circle. I am inclined to think death for Tony...but, if I had to think "circle", I would say no way. The characters are all different now. Tony no longer needs therapy because he does not suffer from the panic attacks anymore. If anything, the scene at the end where he hears the ducks shows that he is not the same person he was at the beginning. Carmella, who used to be completely dependent on Tony is now an independent woman with her own ability to "earn" through real estate. A.J. has finally started a career and appears to be headed in the right direction. Meadow is about to become a lawyer and is on very good terms with dear old dad, which contrasts with season one where they were always fighting. Junior went from head of the family to possibly nuts is a pych ward...and everyone else is either dead, in prison, or in a coma.

If Tony lived, I see no circle. I see a "journey" where life goes on and on and on ... and things progress along that journey.

[jammjamm]

1. You are what you are. Trying to change is -- for 99 percent of us -- futile. In fact, you'll probably get punished for the attempt. See Gene, Vito, et. al.

Gene, Vito, Christopher, and most of all Carmella (and most MOST of all; Tony) all had the chance to change, but they decided not to when they were confronted with the fact that change is hard, dull, unglamorous, and deeply spiritual. They saw the price they would have to pay to live their new lives, but decided in the end that the mob life was the best -- you get free money, respect, power, self-esteem, etc. Remember when Christopher saw the family getting into the car? Remember when Vito looked at his watch and it was only 10 minutes to 10? Remember when Carmella told Weggler to "watch himself?"

No, the characters don't get punished for trying to change, they get punished for all the evil they do in the world, but the punishment is a slow, ambiguous burn. Like Tony's lawyer told him in "Home Movies" -- the specific gun charge was bullshit, but mixed in with all the other bullshit charges, a RICO case is slowly being built. Karma.

[madribub]

Gene, Vito, Christopher, and most of all Carmella (and most MOST of all; Tony) all had the chance to change, but they decided not to when they were confronted with the fact that change is hard, dull, unglamorous, and deeply spiritual. They saw the price they would have to pay to live their new lives, but decided in the end that the mob life was the best -- you get free money, respect, power, self-esteem, etc. Remember when Christopher saw the family getting into the car? Remember when Vito looked at his watch and it was only 10 minutes to 10? Remember when Carmella told Weggler to "watch himself?"

No, the characters don't get punished for trying to change, they get punished for all the evil they do in the world, but the punishment is a slow, ambiguous burn. Like Tony's lawyer told him in "Home Movies" -- the specific gun charge was bullshit, but mixed in with all the other bullshit charges, a RICO case is slowly being built. Karma.

Let's not forget A.J., too. The boy had a chance to change, but given the chance to work on a Hollywood script and to get a new BMW, it seems like he's sort of filling up the vacancy that Chrissy left.

[richjcrouch]

Posted a version of this earlier, and admittedly starting to have my whole doubts on it, but here's one theory for the finale that does bring things full circle and relater to the first episode:


One possibility for the final scene is that it's a panic attack/blackout shot from Tony's perspective, which would bring the series nicely full circle to it's beginning, when he waits in Melfi's lobby to discuss his first blackout. Notice how increasing fidgety he becomes, his visible paranoia/anxiety/ his weird eye motions, and one can almost sense his heart beating faster as the scene progresses (or maybe that's just the viewer's heart...). Meadow's parallel parking could even be read as a metaphor for what's going on in Tony's head at the moment.

Also the various triggers of panic attacks in the final scene or the immediate previous ones:

1. Meat: shots of it frying, Tony staring a couple eating a meat sandwich, the steak reference to AJ: actually it seems whenever Tony isn't suspiciously eying someone, he's eying meat. Finger chopping?

2. Family: enough said, but one emphasis of the final scenes is on Tony losing his immediate family leaving , from Meadow and her birth control to the already gone Junior (which also might strengthen the memories of the finger chopping in the meat store), as well as the potential of Tony himself being severed from his family due to his grand jury inditement. Seems more then enough triggers here. Further Meadow's sexuality through the birth control reference evokes the panic attack in the third season with her black boyfriend.

3. The ducks: the scene of Tony in the back yard looking into trees and not finding the ducks, at least some parallel to the trigger in the pilot. As well, the meeting with the lawyer and the unperforming ketchup bottle is a castration reference if there ever was one, bringing out the other aspect of the ducks dream.


If the last scene is a buildup to a blackout from Tony's perspective, then one could see the Member's only guy and the unidentified black males as merely Tony's own internal mounting anxiety (as far as hitmen go, all of these figures seem rather unthreatening after all...) Then at the final moment, the audience blacks out simultaneously with Tony. Tony survives, but is the same psychological wreck he's always been. Quite possibly, the first scene of a hypothetical next episode could be him sitting in the lobby on a new therapist's office, waiting to describe his day leading up to his blackout... Full circle.

In addition, the season repeatedly emphasizes that he hasn't been suffering panic attacks: it would seem almost strange not have one final one, for them to just go away, given their centrality to the show from the first episode.

Also in support would be various of Chase's comments. Everything is in the final scene is there for the viewer to see, nothing is left out (to paraphrase Chase): both the triggers are there, and the attack itself is shown through the blackout. Further Chase commented that the final episode would relate back to the first, and, of course, Tony's blacking out is rather central to the pilot.

Other bits: the unidentified black males could be a reference to his cover story on the panic attack that caused him to miss Tony B.'s arrest.

Finally, and this I'm not sure of, but the panic attack that Tony's father had (Season 3?), did that involve him cracking his head on a juke box (or was it a cigarette machine)?

Again, just one read of the final scene...


Thats a theory I've been thinking of, and I think it is the theory that makes most sense.

There are reasons to think that Tony has died, there are reasons to think that he hasn't, but if you think about the whole premise of the show, a mob boss who can't lead effectively due to panic attacks, it makes so much sense that that is what happened.

[badabellisima]

Thanks for calling attention again to this Full Circle thread, rj. Itsa theme thats actually been heavily posted on throughout many threads, and i had forgotten about this excellent post fr Map66. Also, re your comments, -Tony may not be seen as an effective leader if he's being sidetracked with panic attacks (remember various negative comments fr his crew and others about this). Remember- especially if you saw the incredible series Rome, how Ceasar had to hide his epilepsy attacks from the people and close family that would hold it against him.

Interesting how Livia and Junior- his own blood family, were condescending towards Tony about seeking help thru therapy. He instinctively knew to hide it from them (wisely). Carm, on the other hand, was very supportive for the most part. She actually does represent a tiny step of improvement in the new generations, IMO.

While i don't think therapy is always the total answer, i have the utmost respect for anyone who seeks it out in their quest for help. Since therapy is an absolutely central and huge part of this entire show, the fact that the therapist (Melfi) broke the circle on Tony's participation in it with her is hugely significant to me. And even more significant, is that Tony DID re-engage in that conversation with another subsequent therapist, (AJs)-(even if it was self-serving and lame). He set a hugely incredibly good example to his ailing son that he supports AJs participation in therapy, and he thanks the therapist for "getting him (AJ) out of bed". Tony acknowledges where therapy was successful, and criticizes it where it fails. i cannot underestimate the importance of this in my estimation of the whole show and giving credit where its due to the figure of Tony Soprano. Since the show is in Chase's own words about the psychological journey of Tony, his tiny step of progress by giving the gift of therapy to his own son is one of the most important and overlooked points in the whole show IMHO. - A gift that shows Tony acknowledges that he himself cannot help AJ beyond his own pathetic emotional skills, and is willing to give him over to someone who he hopes can help him. Because he loves his son so much, he can put himself aside. THAT, is more than a tiny step of progress towards the next generation.

And possibly since Chase didn't actually show that the end was a definite panic attack blackout, or a specific type of death, or whatever, and if we further go on the idea that he has conquered his panic attacks, it could be inferred that he would go forward as a now more effective leader than he was prior. Meaning the circle is broken? That he won't end up back in therapy for the same problem? Since as you reminded us, per Chase, the end has references back to the very first episode, this is definitely worthy of further review.

[SilvioMancini]

Wasnt it in the first episode that when Tony saw the ducks flying off he passed out. The ducks he was told represented his family by Melfi.

Couldnt the last scene in the diner be a similiar event of the ducks flying off from the pool, thus causing Tony's panic attack?

I still think he was killed but the blackout or passing out idea is very intruiging.

[badabellisima]

Oh yeah, i think you're right there about the ducks (his kids) flying off and leaving Tony and Carm with "empty nest" syndrome, or the fear of the impending empty nest. However, T & C are not just staying home alone passively waiting while the kids abandon them, but rather, are actively involved in their lives and continue to participate in their children's current decisions, which theoretically at least, would ward off the negative psychological triggers. Tony has his own game under control as much as he can effect it, and Carm is getting her own earning ability honed. They are continuing to live their lives of their own accord, not thru their kids, as i think some empty-nesters make the mistake of doing. Those empty nesters end up feeling empty, lost and alone when the kids go away, waiting around, hoping the phone will ring, knitting booties in the hopes for grandchildren to fill the void. Sure- Tony and Carm still might be meeting their end anytime soon (maybe that night-), but i get the idea that Chase is telling us they are still living life in the open to its fullest until that time happens, not hiding out in fear, waiting for life to happen to them.

[richjcrouch]

Some excellent points raised, I'd never thought of therapy for AJ as a gift from Tony, but it does make sense.

the thing I do love is that each theory of what happened (killed, nothing, panic attack) each has it's own reasons to be true.

I think it's a truly excellent reflection on just how good the show was ( :icon_cry: ) that such debate can be had about how it ends.

A conclusive ending would have meant people could draw a line under the series, but as it is, it will forever be remembered.