Clear Up Some Plot Questions Here

[tomcat1020]

Good Afternoon ChaseLoungians,

One hell of an episode huh. Wow. I was thinking there was going to be a dream sequence but then the credits came on, aarghh!

Anyway I have seen a lot of posts and discussion on this episode and rightfully so, buta couple of three things should be made clear in this separate thread:

The Guy who Sil killed was Burt Gervasi, a relative of Carlo's possibly brother, or cousin involved in the Construction business. Silvio killed him because he was trying to flip Silvio to set up Tony to be killed by NY and then Sil could take over as NJ boss. Sil gave him his answer.

NY decided to kill Tony, Sil, and Bobby...They killed Bobby, Sil is NOT DEAD, he is in the hospital with multiple gunshot wounds but is not dead as of yet..."They hit him with six shots and he is still alive!!!" That's from One. And Tony has a big fully loaded automatic weapon. They have gone to the mattress....I do not believe they are at Junior's or Livia's house, but a hideout flat.

PAT PARISI did not rat or screw up the hit. The Two Sicilian (Zips in Mobspeak) hitmen brought over from Italy were given the right address. They shot and killed Phil's Goomar's Father thinking it was Phil and then killed the Goomar. It might be interesting to note that Paul Castellano had a housekeeper whom was also his goomar. Patsi did not screw up the hit on purpose or give the wrong address.

[Detective Hunt]

Not a bad idea, tomcat. With all the discussion going on, it's very easy for certain plot points to get passed over or forgotten.

With that said, I don't think we can say with any certainty that Patsi is not a traitor any more than we can say with certainty that he is. But it seems clear that the Italian assassins had the right address - just the wrong white haired man.

And I posted earlier in the general discussion thread that the writers of the show have stated clearly that the house Tony is in at the end of the episode is neither Livia's nor Junior's but just a general safe house (link is in that thread.)

Burt Gervasi is Carlo's cousin who was made at the same time as Gerry the Hair in the first part of season 6.

[Cards2501]

With that said, I don't think we can say with any certainty that Patsi is not a traitor any more than we can say with certainty that he is.

While you are right that we cannot say for certain one way or the other if Patsy is a traitor we have to remember that he has done absolutely nothing to make us think that he might be anything other than 100% loyal to the Soprano family. If anything he has shown signs of allegence to Tony recently with the talk about grandchildren and what not. Not to mention the fact that they NY hitmen were shooting at him also, not just Silvio.

[Detective Hunt]

While you are right that we cannot say for certain one way or the other if Patsy is a traitor we have to remember that he has done absolutely nothing to make us think that he might be anything other than 100% loyal to the Soprano family. If anything he has shown signs of allegence to Tony recently with the talk about grandchildren and what not. Not to mention the fact that they NY hitmen were shooting at him also, not just Silvio.
Well, other than him pissing in Tony's pool, his sarcastic "thank you" moment at Ray Curto's birthday party and other such moments where it seems clear that he still has some level of distrust or discomfort with/for Tony. You are right - we do not know anything for sure. But it would not surprise me if Patsy turned out to be playing both sides. Same with Paulie, honestly. In fact, I distrust Carlo given some of the odd moments surrounding him - most especially the whole "Carlo's coming up" moment just after Chris died when, in fact, we never see Carlo come up. As for being shot at - no doubt they were firing real bullets. They might just want to take him out too in order to cover all their tracks. And they might simply be trying to take out Sil and Patsy is simply collateral damage that has nothing to do with him being a turncoat.

In truth, there may or may not be a turncoat left in Tony's Family. For the purposes of this thread, let us assume we cannot prove that anyone is.

[chaseisgod]

Well, other than him pissing in Tony's pool, his sarcastic "thank you" moment at Ray Curto's birthday party and other such moments where it seems clear that he still has some level of distrust or discomfort with/for Tony. .

Also, it'd be a little difficult to believe that, Mob member or not, you'd just "get over" the whacking of your identical twin. It would also be interesting to see how that would impact the Patrick-Meadow reltionship.

This will all be cleared up in the next 10 episodes.

[Cards2501]

Well, other than him pissing in Tony's pool

Pissing in a guys pool while you are drunk and setting them and the rest of your friends up to be murdered aren't really in the same ballpark. To quote Jules Winfield, "It ain't the same fuckin' ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same fuckin' sport."

I don't think that there needed to be an inside man to convince Phil to want to kill off the management of the Soprano family. Remember Phil has a dead brother too.

[Detective Hunt]

Pissing in a guys pool while you are drunk and setting them and the rest of your friends up to be murdered aren't really in the same ballpark. To quote Jules Winfield, "It ain't the same fuckin' ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same fuckin' sport."

I don't think that there needed to be an inside man to convince Phil to want to kill off the management of the Soprano family. Remember Phil has a dead brother too.
That's just one of many moments, Cards. Many of us obviously have some notion that he might. But as stated - nothing can be proven outright. Let's leave it at that for this thread since it's purpose is simply to note what we know for sure.

[Tonysbodyguard]

I watched the episode twice the other night and I thought it was pretty clear that Patsy had nothing to do with the NY guys. Both Patsy and the NY guys shots came very close to each other and if Patsy had anything to do with these guys he would not endanger himself recklessly. Not to mention his shots were shown smashing the glass of the driver side door while one of the NY guys ducked behind the door. Patsy frantically running through the creek also showed his true fear that he would be chased.

[awpilot]

In addition - why would patsy give the zips the wrong address to kill phil - and provide the right picture?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, people overanalyse this show, and make spurious connections out of the most mundane things.

[MrTaste]

pilot.. truer words were never spoken.. or typed for that matter

[Feral]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, people overanalyse this show, and make spurious connections out of the most mundane things.

Yeah, what's next? Nucci Gualtieri faked her own death so she could put NY and NJ up against each other without suspicion?

About the safehouse, it sure looks a hell of a lot like Junior's place. I recognized the kitchen especially, and the front looks kinda like the front of Junior's house in season 5 when he goes out in his bathrobe to get ice cream.
Were does it say it isn't?

[gamecock]

The house is close but I do not believe that the stairs were up against that back wall like they were when T walked up them.

[bloodshot]

it's not jrs house. there's been enough shots of JRs exterior in earler episodes to immediately make that apparent. use the episode that he goes next door during a bout of confusion to ask for ice cream. it's some sort of safe house in clifton NJ.

also, for those needing a time check, this is all happening on Janurary 09 2007. a prize for the 1st post that knows where that time check is.. alright no prize but search away.

[TonysOriginalNJAccent]

AJ's computer screen? Or is that just a mess up and the date wasn't supposed to be visible on his screen?

[Splishak]

For those folks who think they recognize Junior's house, I'm sure there is a tacky joke around somewhere about how most all houses in NJ look the same. I will pass on posting any such joke because I think it would unnecessarily target some of the nice folks from our Garden State.

But Alan Sepinwal (from the Star Ledger) is usually a very reliable source and he says that it is just some anonymous safe house. I would tend to believe that.

[Aries69]

Not that it matters much but there was a card board cutout in the safe house that looked like Sil. Did any one else see this.


On a side note I remember someone here saying the safe house was Tony's mom's old house, if so why would the cutout be there.

[aprilemoney]

I think it's apparent NY will have to reach out to someone in NJ...I would think Paulie (being the old school mobster he is) would get the call from Phil's crew..Promising him the top seat and to save the rest of his family.

Now whether Paulie or whoever refuses will be the million dollar question....

I think Tony knows NY will reach out to NJ...he has to kill Phil and Butchie and then talk to LIttle Carmine about a peace agreement. If his men dont decide to kill him first.

[billymac]

Not that it matters much but there was a card board cutout in the safe house that looked like Sil. Did any one else see this.


On a side note I remember someone here saying the safe house was Tony's mom's old house, if so why would the cutout be there.

Yes, other people have noticed this as well and have been discussing it in the general thread and this thread. The consensus is that the "safe house" was not Livia's old house or Junior's old house: just some randome safe house. So far no one has come up with any logical explanation for the cardboard cut-out of Sil being there.

You originally posted these questions as a separate thread and I have merged it here. I ask that you please re-read the sticky thread about "opening new threads." The more input and interaction by posters the better (we all love to chat and post around here), but, organization is necessary to keep the discussions from fragmenting into multiple threads discussing virtually the same topics. Your help in keeping duplicate threads down in the future is greatly appreciated as it makes the moderators' jobs easier (we don't enjoy having to move and reorganize threads - we would much rather spend out time participating in the discussion with the other members) and it makes it much easier for all members to follow and participate in some really great discusssions. :icon_mrgreen:

[tomcat1020]

I figured I would post this new thread. If anyone could let me know where I should have posted it-instead of starting a new thread, that'd be great. Me thinks, it is a separate topic so it's a new thread right?

THE SAFE HOUSE: Since they are at war I doubt they would choose a house that NY would already know about like Junior's or even Livia...NY would look there and be sitting ducks-no pun intended. The location is secret. Basically the war is going to end when Either Tony Dies or Phil and Butchie.

THE CUTOUT- I am sure it is simply a motivational tool. Like in the NFL if people talk shit they put up there quotes in the Locker Room for motivation. Like when the Pats beat San Diego last year I am sure there was a cutouot of Merrian doing his "Lights Out" dance. And I am sure the lights were out on the plane ride back to San Diego.

NY shot up Sil. It is time for some revenge, that's what the cutout is there for.

[jmag]

In addition - why would patsy give the zips the wrong address to kill phil - and provide the right picture?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, people overanalyse this show, and make spurious connections out of the most mundane things.

haha, and why would the 'wrong' address just happen to be phils' goomar's house...what are the odds of that one:icon_rolleyes:

[jmag]

I figured I would post this new thread. If anyone could let me know where I should have posted it-instead of starting a new thread, that'd be great. Me thinks, it is a separate topic so it's a new thread right?

THE SAFE HOUSE: Since they are at war I doubt they would choose a house that NY would already know about like Junior's or even Livia...NY would look there and be sitting ducks-no pun intended. The location is secret. Basically the war is going to end when Either Tony Dies or Phil and Butchie.

THE CUTOUT- I am sure it is simply a motivational tool. Like in the NFL if people talk shit they put up there quotes in the Locker Room for motivation. Like when the Pats beat San Diego last year I am sure there was a cutouot of Merrian doing his "Lights Out" dance. And I am sure the lights were out on the plane ride back to San Diego.

NY shot up Sil. It is time for some revenge, that's what the cutout is there for.


I'm sure that they didn't just purchase/rent the safehouse. It's probably been used for ages for whatever reasons and maintained by the highers ups in Jersey for just such a purpose. This would ultimately mean that Sil would know about it and has probably been there before and could have easily dropped off crap from the bing there. The humor/irony of it I think Chase intended is that its standing in the room that Sil isn't in because he was just shot. I really doubt it was much more than that, because that reason alone is fulfilling enough for its existance.

[anthony]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, people overanalyse this show, and make spurious connections out of the most mundane things.

Oh, you got that right!!

[bloodshot]

maybe i'm late on some of the replys to sevral questions i keep see popping up.

it's not the wrong address, it's basically the wrong time. they had expected Phil to meet at his Gomares house (i'm sure it doesn't happen the other way around). Since Phil had "grounded it"already, the gomare may have asked her father to come by. so instaed of the usual date phil has on friday, the lookalike father is there-pow.

and i'm still surprised at the number of posters that still think its livia or Jr's house. for anyone whos watch the show for any number of seasons it should be immedialtely apparent it's neither. i can understand someone who may have started watching in the 5th season to be a bit confused, but anything longer then that?????

[Tecoita]

im new here in terms of posting but i've been reading for a long time. what the hell is the significance of that cardboard cut out? Why would sil have that in the first place?

[TonysOriginalNJAccent]

im new here in terms of posting but i've been reading for a long time. what the hell is the significance of that cardboard cut out? Why would sil have that in the first place?

It's obvious that since his hair almost always looks the same that it is used as a stand in for a mirror when there is not one nearby.

[scudgal]

It's obvious that since his hair almost always looks the same that it is used as a stand in for a mirror when there is not one nearby.

ROFL - TonysoriginalNJaccent!!!

[SalmonSushi]

I am surprised that so many are trying to rationalize the Sil cutout at the safe house.

IMO, that cutout does not "exist" per se. Tony and Paulie are not going to carry it out the door with them after the war is over. Sil did not have it planted in the house as a motivational tool.

The cutout is there as an Easter egg - Chase's "wink" to fans of the show. It is not meant to be analyzed as a plot device. It is simply a small moment of absurdity in an episode of otherwise uninterrupted realism. I, for one, thought it was a wonderful touch.

[gamecock]

I know that there is a ton of discussion around the house. I just thought that I would add that it looks a lot like Feech L's house. Think back to the episode where Christopher hides the TV's around back.

[Splishak]

im new here in terms of posting but i've been reading for a long time. what the hell is the significance of that cardboard cut out? Why would sil have that in the first place?

If I was David Chase (and we can all be thankful that I'm not), I would not insert props or plot twists or characters into the show that were designed to have some specific meaning - especially not a single meaning.

I would insert some of these things for their artistic merits - so that they would enhance the look and feel of the show - without necessarily having any specific significance. I would especially not want to get nailed down to some specific meaning to these things such that I would then be forced to be careful that any future reference had to make sense to all the past references.

In other words, I've seen it said a few times by producers or directors, that they create art for it to stand on its own. They don't want to discuss it after it is created. The art may well be open to multiple interpretations, but that is, after all, the nature of art.

I wish I could find a well-known quote that espoused this viewpoint. Would anyone else know of one?

[tomahawk]

I wish I could find a well-known quote that espoused this viewpoint. Would anyone else know of one?

How about "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" - Freud

[Splishak]

Heh! I meant a quote by a producer, director or actor about how a film (or TV show) should stand on its own and that it makes no sense to try and analyze various props, characters or plot twists looking for some hidden meanings.

Part of this attitude is that the creator of a piece of art is not interested in discussing or analyzing the work with people - and often they will refuse to even look at it after it's completed.

I know that I've seen this attitude expressed several times. But I can't remember who it was that said it.

[Pork Store]

I know that I've seen this attitude expressed several times. But I can't remember who it was that said it.

Andy Warhol is a good example. He would often play dumb to the press and refused to give explanations. He said all you need to know about my work is already there "above the surface."

Or something close to that.

[Splishak]

Andy Warhol is a good example. He would often play dumb to the press and refused to give explanations. He said all you need to know about my work is already there "above the surface."

Or something close to that.


Thanks very much Pork Store. Excellent example.

If I was an artist, I would want to take advantage of the fact that various objects or concepts can have multiple meanings and I would want to try and weave those multiple meanings into the nature of my creations. So, for example, when people find more than one meaning in the music used in the show, I would attribute that to the creative ability of the artists. If the artist was fixated on only a single meaning behind the use of a particular piece of music and let that be known, how would the people who chose a different meaning feel? And wouldn't that lessen the overall appeal of the art? I say, let the artist retain the freedom to create and do not try to pin them down to some specific meaning of the work. Do not try to pressure them to explain the meaning of their work. By doing that, you force them to lessen the appeal and the value of the work. Perhaps that is why so many artists refuse to be questioned about their work and refuse to offer explanations as to its meaning.