Did Kennedy and Heidi Damage Your Emotional Investment in Tony?

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

I've been going back over the General Review thread from the beginning, hoping that the extra week and a second reading of the many excellent thoughts offered there might help me reclaim the missing visceral, personal, emotional connection to Tony that has always fueled my extreme passion for the show. I suppose that quest is failing in that the following post by wgaryw absolutely jumped off the page at me. It's as if gary is reading my mind and heart aloud:

As usual for almost all the episodes in season 6, I had to watch this twice before really absorbing it. And as usual, the episode only seemed *more* layered and complex after the second viewing, which I guess is a good thing.

My overwhelming first reaction -- OVERWHEMLING-- is that I would probably have unconditionally loved this episode if it had aired *before* last week's. I suppose they'd have to snip out the references to the peyote trip in Melfi's office; and the scene with Kelly where she talks about the house being too big now that Chris is dead. But otherwise, continuity-wise, you could pretty much stick this episode before "Kennedy and Heidi".

The problem is, I'm disgusted with Tony and nothing in tonight's episode redeems him in my eyes. It's not that I'm looking for redemption, either. It's just that it leaves me emotionally disconnected with the show in a way I've never felt in all the years I've watched it. It's a weird way to feel towards a show I love, two episodes before the end.

So I tried to imagine how I would have reacted to this episode if it had happened before Tony killed Christopher, and it really hit home how much last week's episode devastated any empathy I once felt towards Tony Soprano.

In many ways, "The Second Coming" felt like an "old school" episode. Two good Melfi sessions, a session with Eliot, focus on the domestic family, all the stuff I love the most. Alongside this, the mob story was high tension, with a fairly typical Sorpanos scene of an innocent getting beaten (the construction guy). All good. All deeper and more interesting on a second viewing.

So why was I left so cold? I think it's because I just don't like anything about Tony anymore. At his most sympathetic moment, when he was cradling AJ in his arms repeating "It's all right, baby"-- a scene which many folks apparently found so moving -- all I could think of was the dead look on Tony's face as he suffocated Christopher. I think maybe *I* have post traumatic stress disorder.

Do you think this is the intended reaction (if there is such a thing)? Am I alone in feeling so alienated from any positive aspects of Tony's behavior at this point in the series?

I was in chat last night with jouster and Universal Polymath, and I got the distinct impression that they are feeling a bit the same.

So I thought it would be interesting to pose a poll question to see if we can identify and even quantify this phenomenon. If you do feel similarly, what do you think it would take for you to regain your emotional stake in Tony's fate?

[Mafiaphile]

Yeah, BUT... after Christophuh shot JT in the head the previous episode, that was the end of whatever investment I had in him. Then Tony takes an opportunity to rid himself of Chris. It's obvious what Chase is doing here: showing (or reminding us of) their true nature before the finale.
Is this what Melfi meant when she said "decompensation"? She seems rather resigned in her & Tony's sessions...

[TonysOriginalNJAccent]

Yeah, BUT... after Christophuh shot JT in the head the previous episode, that was the end of whatever investment I had in him. Then Tony takes an opportunity to rid himself of Chris. It's obvious what Chase is doing here: showing (or reminding us of) their true nature before the finale.
Is this what Melfi meant when she said "decompensation"? She seems rather resigned in her & Tony's sessions...

This is pretty much my reasoning for not losing my empathy to Tony's character. Chris was no saint, and Tony has done other reprehensible things throughout the course of the show. Ade's death comes to the forefront here:

Was it the fact that it was not Tony calling Ade the C word before he shot her multiple times that allowed us to continue to care for him? Even though he was just as responsible for her death as Sil or Chris? Do we all hate Silvio for what he did to Ade? Is the murder of Chris, a sociopathic murdering drug addict, worse than the ordered death of a naive but still very much innocent Adriana?

I don't think so. So while maybe I should have lost my personal interest in Tony's character ever since "Long Term Parking" (I didn't) I definitely won't lose it now.

[jouster]

As you surmised in the chat, I do feel that way, Fly. One thing I have come to feel, mostly from reading here post-K&H, is that Tony may have in fact grieved for Chris, preemptively, in the emotional therapy scene in Stage 5. I think, post-Cleaver, Tony's so-called bond with Chris (never as strong as either one thought it was, if you ask me) was clipped and thus Tony's extremely emotional reaction at the time (for him). Now, that said, the fact that he killed Christopher and has shown no remorse or sadness of any sort is the real sticking point. Regardless of how their relationship has deteriorated, this is a huge development, and if there is not some kind of acknowledgment or reckoning for this (as well as his many other heinous acts), I will be greatly disappointed. As you said, Fly, we have been lead to believe that Tony regrets the choices he made and the life he leads, and his subconscious has practically screamed at him for change; I don't know if he can change at this point (:icon_cry:), but there has to be a direct confrontation with this aspect of himself before the series ends. Essentially, if these don't happen, then a lot of the series will feel like one big tease.

Now, the second option to get me reinvested would be if Tony could "save" AJ. He already did that literally, of course, in The Second Coming, but I'd like to see him somehow guide AJ down the path that he himself was perhaps too weak to take (the moral, compassionate path). I think the seeds for this have definitely been sown, in Johnny Cakes as well as in Tony's (seeming) growing distaste for murder illustrated in several episode this season (Soprano Home Movies, Chasing It). I'm unsure how it would be accomplished, but I have no doubt that Tony's fate is tied with AJ's at this point (and vice versa, of course).

I could write more, and probably will, but you definitely touched on a big thing here, FOMW. Thanks for rousing me from my lurking slumber :icon_mrgreen:

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Yeah, BUT... after Christophuh shot JT in the head the previous episode, that was the end of whatever investment I had in him. Then Tony takes an opportunity to rid himself of Chris. It's obvious what Chase is doing here: showing (or reminding us of) their true nature before the finale.
Is this what Melfi meant when she said "decompensation"? She seems rather resigned in her & Tony's sessions...

Mafiaphile, with respect to Tony only, I guess I'm questioning if what we saw of him in Kennedy and Heidi (and continuing into Second Coming) can in fact be his "true" nature if it seems to contradict what we've been led to believe for nearly seven seasons about his capacity for love and the existence within him of some modicum of conscience. I mean Tony was even haunted by his killing of Matt Bevalaqua, the guy who tried to murder Chris and against whom Tony felt such a personal need for revenge that he exposed himself as a mob boss to potential murder charges to carry out the hit personally.

His love for Pussy made him nearly oblivious to the truth of Pussy's betrayals for over a year, and Pussy's death, however much Tony felt it was justified, continued to haunt him for all of season 3. He even managed to remark, "Him you loved" when talking about what a great Santa Claus Pussy made, an acknowledgement (post rat) that seemed positively taboo by Mafia standards.

While his reaction to the news of Adriana's informant status was swift and sure and all about self preservation, he still was obviously burdened by grief and guilt afterward. When he found Chris high in the Bing, he gave him a sympathetic pat while stifling a pained expression. He blew his stack when Chris uttered, "I can't stand the pain. I loved her." The ensuing, vicious beat down of Chris, accompanied by Tony's exclamation, "You think you're alone in this!?" was every bit as effective an indication of Tony's grief as if he had been shown alone in streaming tears. It was classic, conflicted Tony.

More subtle but equally effective in communicating the emotional toll Ade's whacking exacted was the closing scene of Long Term Parking. With a lesser actor playing the part, the scene could be labeled a writing failure. But with Gandolfini so brilliantly adept at speaking with his body, his mannerisms, his tone of voice, and his facial expressions, it was a masterful scene of someone fighting a private battle with a highly oppressive emotional weight. You could literally see him struggling with that weight in his lumbering gait and in the way his feet seemed to laboriously shuffle and slosh through the dead leaves as he slowly climbed up the hill of the woodland that so closely resembled the land where Adriana drew her final breaths.

I've often felt that Tony subconsciously hated/resented Christopher on some level for telling him about Ade and thus forcing Tony to be the one to order her whacking. And this is without Tony understanding that Chris' "loyalty" to him was ultimately more about loyalty to a Hummer and a wiseguy lifestyle.

I'm not sure whether that theory of subconscious resentment is bolstered or refuted by what Tony told Melfi in the real therapy scene of Kennedy and Heidi. It's clear that Tony blamed Chris, not Adriana, for Ade's involvement with the feds, thus Tony's description of it as a "huge problem of his own making". So, in any case and for whatever reasons, there were ill feelings going both ways over what transpired with Ade.

Back to manifestations of grief over similarly "close" murders, I still maintain that the most profound expression of grief and emotional conflict we've yet seen out of Tony in this series ocurred in the scene in the motel with Chris after Tony has shot Tony B. Gandolfini's face was beet red, the area around his eyes and nose puffy from what appeared to be a serious crying jag before he entered the room, and his voice monotone and utterly robbed of vitality as he told Chris to bury his cousin. Then there was the embrace with Chris after Tony tells him to "forget Ade" because she was "a cunt". Halting, awkward, sobbing, and ultimately fierce, the hug completely belied the sincerity of Tony's words.

Because some seem to consistently misinterpret what I hold to be significant about such scenes, let me clarify that none of this in any way reduces the immorality or despicable nature of Ade's murder or of even the murders of Pussy or Tony B, the victims and motives for each murder distinguishing them from one another in significant respects. But as long as Tony feels serious internal conflict, as long as he is tortured in some measure by these actions, he remains a fascinating character worth investing in emotionally, a character worth understanding, a character worth even some empathy. Once the inner conflict over a horrible act ends, as it essentially appeared to in Kennedy and Heidi, there's nothing left worth trying to understand, worth caring about. And that's a place that some of us have come to.

[billymac]

I am still very much interested in Tony's fate. I want to know if he'll come to terms, with Melfi's help, in understanding the root causes for his depression. I want to know if he'll ever allow us to see his own recognition concerning his lifestyle: will he own the fact that he is personally responsible for carnage, misery, sadness and disaster inflicted on other lives, including inocents and members of his own household? If he does come to that self-recognition, can he or will he do anything about it? These are the unresolved questions that make me still care about Tony and his character. Although the character of Tony Soprano has teased us with the possibility of redemption, the reality is that he is and was a murdering criminal, albeit one with a warped sense of ethics, morality and responsibility. Christopher's murder is just the latest manifestation of this truth. And, I don't think we have seen the final word on whether or not he truly grieves for Christopher. I wouldn't be surprised if that single act isn't the catalyst for some legitimate soul-searching with Melfi in the next 2 episodes to propel Tony along to reach his moment of clarity about himself and his life. Again, what he does about it, is still up for grabs. These are the things that have me as passionate as ever about this show and which have not really divested my emotional attachment to Tony at all. I say we are in for some fantastic finish! :icon_wink:

[chaseisgod]

Mafiaphile, with respect to Tony only, I guess I'm questioning if what we saw of him in Kennedy and Heidi (and continuing into Second Coming) can in fact be his "true" nature if it seems to contradict what we've been led to believe for nearly seven seasons about his capacity for love and the existence within him of some modicum of conscience. I mean Tony was even haunted by his killing of Matt Bevalaqua, the guy who tried to murder Chris and against whom Tony felt such a personal need for revenge that he exposed himself as a mob boss to potential murder charges to carry out the hit personally.

His love for Pussy made him nearly oblivious to the truth of Pussy's betrayals for over a year, and Pussy's death, however much Tony felt it was justified, continued to haunt him for all of season 3. He even managed to remark, "Him you loved" when talking about what a great Santa Claus Pussy made, an acknowledgement (post rat) that seemed positively taboo by Mafia standards.

While his reaction to the news of Adriana's informant status was swift and sure and all about self preservation, he still was obviously burdened by grief and guilt afterward. When he found Chris high in the Bing, he gave him a sympathetic pat while stifling a pained expression. He blew his stack when Chris uttered, "I can't stand the pain. I loved her." The ensuing, vicious beat down of Chris, accompanied by Tony's exclamation, "You think you're alone in this!?" was every bit as effective an indication of Tony's grief as if he had been shown alone in streaming tears. It was classic, conflicted Tony.

More subtle but equally effective in communicating the emotional toll Ade's whacking exacted was the closing scene of Long Term Parking. With a lesser actor playing the part, the scene could be labeled a writing failure. But with Gandolfini so brilliantly adept at speaking with his body, his mannerisms, his tone of voice, and his facial expressions, it was a masterful scene of someone fighting a private battle with a highly oppressive emotional weight. You could literally see him struggling with that weight in his lumbering gait and in the way his feet seemed to laboriously shuffle and slosh through the dead leaves as he slowly climbed up the hill of the woodland that so closely resembled the land where Adriana drew her final breaths.

I've often felt that Tony subconsciously hated/resented Christopher on some level for telling him about Ade and thus forcing Tony to be the one to order her whacking. And this is without Tony understanding that Chris' "loyalty" to him was ultimately more about loyalty to a Hummer and a wiseguy lifestyle.

I'm not sure whether that theory of subconscious resentment is bolstered or refuted by what Tony told Melfi in the real therapy scene of Kennedy and Heidi. It's clear that Tony blamed Chris, not Adriana, for Ade's involvement with the feds, thus Tony's description of it as a "huge problem of his own making". So, in any case and for whatever reasons, there were ill feelings going both ways over what transpired with Ade.

Back to manifestations of grief over similarly "close" murders, I still maintain that the most profound expression of grief and emotional conflict we've yet seen out of Tony in this series ocurred in the scene in the motel with Chris after Tony has shot Tony B. Gandolfini's face was beet red, the area around his eyes and nose puffy from what appeared to be a serious crying jag before he entered the room, and his voice monotone and utterly robbed of vitality as he told Chris to bury his cousin. Then there was the embrace with Chris after Tony tells him to "forget Ade" because she was "a cunt". Halting, awkward, sobbing, and ultimately fierce, the hug completely belied the sincerity of Tony's words.

Because some seem to consistently misinterpret what I hold to be significant about such scenes, let me clarify that none of this in any way reduces the immorality or despicable nature of Ade's murder or of even the murders of Pussy or Tony B, the victims and motives for each murder distinguishing them from one another in significant respects. But as long as Tony feels serious internal conflict, as long as he is tortured in some measure by these actions, he remains a fascinating character worth investing in emotionally, a character worth understanding, a character worth even some empathy. Once the inner conflict over a horrible act ends, as it essentially appeared to in Kennedy and Heidi, there's nothing left worth trying to understand, worth caring about. And that's a place that some of us have come to.

Fascinating question. It hasn't changed my own emotional investment in Tony, because I don't see it as being too much different from Tony's killing of Tony B. Like Chris, Tony B had screwed up, but Tony essentially killed him for his own selfish reasons. He felt justified. I think he felt justified killing Christopher, too. And, as I've said before, I still think we will see some sign of remore, or serious internal conflict, regarding Christopher. One of the themes this season has been Tony's need to escape his problems -- the gambling, for example. The trip to Vegas was Tony's way, I think, to temporarily escape what he did to Christopher. But only temporarily....we'll see, I guess.

Here's what I wonder -- if, in these last two episodes, we do see some sort of breakdown regarding Christopher, will it have come too late?

[billymac]

Now, the second option to get me reinvested would be if Tony could "save" AJ. He already did that literally, of course, in The Second Coming, but I'd like to see him somehow guide AJ down the path that he himself was perhaps too weak to take (the moral, compassionate path). I think the seeds for this have definitely been sown, in Johnny Cakes as well as in Tony's (seeming) growing distaste for murder illustrated in several episode this season (Soprano Home Movies, Chasing It). I'm unsure how it would be accomplished, but I have no doubt that Tony's fate is tied with AJ's at this point (and vice versa, of course).

Excellent point Jouster! Tony's "redemption" may come not in saving or changing his own life, but by the redemption of his son from a similar fate. In either case, Tony must unflinchingly accept his responsibility. I still strongly believe that such acceptance is coming and that Tony (and we) will reap the reward of Melfi's assistance.

[AJColossal]

In my opinion, Tony Soprano had a complex and conflicted response to the death of a person that evoked complex and conflicted emotions.

It was a strange response, but it worked when I considered how much of an emotional whirlwind Chris has had Tony on for so long.

I just don't think Tony knew how to emote anymore regarding Chris.

[Universal Polymath]

There have been some excellent comments here. As we discussed in the chat room last night, yes, at this point I feel similarly disconnected from Tony and the entire show by extension (after all, Tony is the show), an unexpected and alarming feeling to have just two episodes away from the end. Earlier this season (hell, right up to just before “Kennedy and Heidi” aired), I felt that Tony Soprano’s moment of revelation and redemption was unquestionably imminent, and that the manner in which the moment of growth occurred would be the only surprise. Now though, I’m not so sure.


I want to know if he'll come to terms, with Melfi's help, in understanding the root causes for his depression. I want to know if he'll ever allow us to see his own recognition concerning his lifestyle: will he own the fact that he is personally responsible for carnage, misery, sadness and disaster inflicted on other lives, including inocents and members of his own household? If he does come to that self-recognition, can he or will he do anything about it? These are the unresolved questions that make me still care about Tony and his character.

Yes, Billymac, the same questions continue to intrigue me, but it is my growing doubt that of a resolution that is affecting my attitude towards the show. You know, I can only have hope for a satisfying conclusion up until point at which the conclusion actually happens. I think on some level, I’m suddenly distancing myself from the show just to ease the emotional blow I’d feel if this series doesn’t end anything like I want it to.


What I'm worried about, more than anything, is that when all is said and done, my initial response will be disappointment. I'm not saying Chase's finale will probably be anything less than brilliant. And who knows, even if I am slightly disappointed, I may come to appreciate it over time. But I'd feel awful if my natural, uncontrollable reaction to the final episode was disappointment - if I felt a panicked wave of "Oh no, that can't be how it ends!", instead of sitting back and feeling total satisfaction. I just love this show so much, I really care about my reaction to it. Disappointment towards The Sopranos? It feels like sacrilege! And that disappointment would only be amplified because it would be with the conclusion. There'd be no chance after that for the show to redeem itself again. Anyone else worried about that?

We can't control our initial reaction to the show, it's also impossible to control runaway expectations as well. I want to curb my expectations of the finale and go into watching it anticipating nothing. But just thinking of some of the incredible moments in the series in past seasons, and being reminded of what greatness this series is capable of, it's only natural to hope the show will leave on a similar great note. And when people tend to think like that, as you said garthman, disappointment and a feeling of the show "falling short" is practically inevitable.

I posted this on April 8th, just hours before the first episode began. Now, this worry about being disappointed is becoming much, much more real to me than I thought it would.

I’ll try to curb any alarm I may be feeling at the moment until after “The Blue Comet”. This will be the last chance for Chase to reignite my interest in this series and its main character before the finale, and I certainly hope this happens. I don’t want to spend a whole extra week between the next two episodes in worry if I don’t have to.

[clementine]

I voted:

No. I found Tony’s murder of Chris and his demeanor during and after it to be well within character, and I remain as interested as ever in his fate.

But I found it hard to choose because of the way this is worded. I didn't find his demeanor "well within character"--it was shocking, horrifying. When Tony was covering Chris's nose my dad couldn't figure out what was going on, and I shouted, "He's killing him! Oh my God! He's killing him." I just could not believe it--that Tony would do it, that this is how Chris would die, that their relationship would never be resolved, that I wouldn't see Michael Imperioli anymore. I was and still am upset. However, it's not so out of character that it's bad writing. Stop me if someone else already said this, but it's more like Tony B. that I initially thought. It's something that simply has to happen, mobwise, but it's also a kind of mercy killing in both cases (or at least that's what Tony tells himself, but a case can be made that he really did save them both from something worse). So it's pure Tony--the smart "business" decision, but with something extra in it for himself (like when he sold the property to Jamba Juice to get to Juliana).

I said this before, but if this thing ends with no further soul-searching about Christopher on Tony's part, I'll feel cheated, but I'll worry about that when/if it happens. In the meantime, I can't wait for the next two Sundays.

[billymac]

Yes, Billymac, the same questions continue to intrigue me, but it is my growing doubt that of a resolution that is affecting my attitude towards the show. You know, I can only have hope for a satisfying conclusion up until point at which the conclusion actually happens. I think on some level, I’m suddenly distancing myself from the show just to ease the emotional blow I’d feel if this series doesn’t end anything like I want it to.

I completely understand UP. I'll admit that I too was deeply invested in some sort of change or redemption for Tony. It is still a possibility, but not likely. Recognizing that I still hold out hope for some acknowledgement by Tony of the shitty life he has led and its spillover to other lives. I may not even get that. If our expectations for the end of the series differ markedly from that of David Chase, then dissapointment (to some degree) is inevitable, but I am having trouble understanding the degree to which members are feeling an emotional disconnect with Tony, especially if the source of the disconnect is Christopher's murder.

Was it so unexpected for this opportunistic killer to rid himself of a problem (Christopher) when the opportunity presented itself? He killed Tony B to end a problem between himself and NY.

Alternatively, if Christopher wasn't really a "problem", didn't Christopher's movie "Cleaver" present Tony with the biggest (and most public) mirror of precisely who and what he is? Being confronted with the ugly truth of this portrayal, was it out of character for Tony to want to forever silence the creator of this cinematic looking glass? This same man had threatened to smother Christopher for much less - killing Ade's dog Cosette. He also actually killed Ralph for much less - assumedly killing Pie O' My. Is there any reason to think that he wouldn't be furious with Christopher for publicly disseminating an unflattering caricature in a revenge fantasy movie that essentially paints him as a lecehrous, grabby and selfish prick?

For me at least killing Christopher was not the dividing point between a "good" Tony and a "bad" Tony: He has always been both. Consequently, I find it hard to take Christopher's murder as THE event that would make me detach emotionally from Tony. Tony's apparent lack of remorse about Christopher's murder MAY signal that Tony is beyond complete and total redemption. But why should we expect him to grieve for someone with whom he no longer has any emotional attachments himself? Those bonds were severed (if they ever really existed completely at all) with the premiere of Cleaver. Even if Tony still had genuine emotional connections to Christopher, have some of us abandoned all hope that Tony won't face his grief over this act? Or do I detect a "wait and see" attitude about this?

Let me pose a question to those who now feel emotionally (or otherwise) detached from Tony Soprano: what were your expectations for the ending and have they been completely dashed or are you just pessimistic that your expectations might not be partially or completely met?

[AJColossal]

Let me pose a question to those who now feel emotionally (or otherwise) detached from Tony Soprano: what were your expectations for the ending and have they been completely dashed or are you just pessimistic that your expectations might not be partially or completely met?


And in a show where the recurring theme seems to be that people can't stray too far from their essence, would an ending where Tony realizes the wrong of his ways be true to the show?

[jouster]

Although Christopher's killing was definitely shocking, it wasn't the turning point. It was Tony's reaction to his death that has left so many of us cold. Not only has Tony not shown any signs of grief, but he has shown resentment for those that have. Fly already laid out pretty well how the murders of others have affected Tony, and it seems there are no signs of a similar reaction regarding Christopher. No matter how poor their relationship had become, this non-reaction is very disconcerting.

As far as the ending goes... I still have hope, without a doubt. I'm worried right now, but the show has never let me down in a major way before (I, of course, like anyone, have minor complaints). There is no doubt in my mind that I will enjoy these final two episodes, and I might even enjoy the ending very much even if my expectations aren't met. We shall see.

And AJColossal, I don't expect Tony to become a good guy or change his spots overnight. I just think that the potential for change in Tony is definitely there, and the change has been hinted at or come to the forefront too many times for me to think that it's there for no good reason.

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

It hasn't changed my own emotional investment in Tony, because I don't see it as being too much different from Tony's killing of Tony B. Like Chris, Tony B had screwed up, but Tony essentially killed him for his own selfish reasons.

CIG, we see things so similarly most of the time that I always have to pinch myself and make a concerted effort to re-evaluate when our views significantly diverge. I just pinched myself.:icon_biggrin:

To me, the situation with Tony B feels fundamentally different. There were enormous pressures on Tony from everywhere to give Tony B up to NY. The vaunted "code" of the mob required it. The all-powerful NY leadership required it. The lives and physical security of his own men required it. Their willingness to view and follow him as a leader required it. Even Tony's own shrink, however unwittingly, required it by telling him to ignore his emotional attachments to Tony B and act purely on the knowledge that some portion of that attachment owed to guilt rather than to love.

Many bought into Sil's ostensible truth that Tony didn't want to "bow down" to Johnny Sac and that that was the reason Tony took so long to come through. But, in fact, Sil was dead wrong. Tony DID bow down to John.

He approached him in LTP fully intent on doing the "right" thing for all involved, asking only for John's promise that Tony B wouldn't be subjected to a prolonged or agonizing death. Tony exhibited a level of deference and humility that strongly resembled grovelling. It started from the moment he greeted him, "There he is, the King of New York." It continued as he quietly endured Johnny's condescension about the indignity of meeting in the place Tony chose. It continued as he humbly reminded John that he [John] was the one with all the power, "John, you're the boss of NY. You can do anything you want." It continued as he endured Johnny's brush-offs, "Phil will do it his way." It continued as he made a last, heartfelt plea out of what he thought was a mutual friendship: "John this is me now talking. Tony. As a friend." And it finally crashed as John summarily rebuffed him a final time and casually picked tobacco from his tongue as if to underscore how trivial Tony and his pleas were to him. Considering that Johnny could have easily offered the promise to Tony with no intention of actually honoring it, Tony's modest request and giant leap of faith in Johnny's word solidifies for me that this was an entirely genuine concern that Tony B not be tortured. It wasn't about Tony's pride.

In the end, Tony chose the path that arguably did the most "good" for the most people. By blasting Tony B's face off with a shotgun, he made certain the proper result was obtained, that his cousin would not suffer torture or an agonizingly slow death, that he could restore his bargaining position with Johnny Sac to bring an end to the conflict, that Chris could emerge from hiding without a looming death threat, that his other men would no longer have to fear for their own lives, and, last but not least, that they could all continue to make money.

But while it did the most good for the most people, it was the choice that unquestionably caused Tony the most personal grief. Season 5 was said to focus on Tony as a leader, and what we saw in the end was that, in a perverse and subversive sense of that term, Tony proved to be a great leader. He put the collective good first.

In contrast, his ostensible motives for killing Chris were almost entirely selfish. If you discount Tony's concern for Kaitlyn (which many have done), his motives reduced to worry about Chris flipping and giving Tony up to the FBI, disgust in Chris for being a drug addict, resignation that that would never change, and extreme hurt and resentment over the hatred Chris aimed subliminally at Tony through Cleaver.

I completely concur with others' observations that the relationship between Tony and Chris is extremely complex and that, therefore, Tony's reaction to the murder is likely to be equally complex. That is precisely why within 12 hours of the episode, I was searching for (some might say concocting:icon_biggrin:) an elaborate mechanism of motive that could explain the patent incongruities in how Tony did act during and after the murder versus how we might have expected him to act.

But to assess any of this, I think you must honestly ask how Tony's behavior in and around this murder differed from his behavior in and around others. I don't see how it's possible to interpret Tony's demeanor during the actual killing as communicating anything but a new and unprecedented level of depravity, evil, or emotional vacancy within him. One of the first remarks from my aunt when we spoke on the phone after the episode was that the look on Tony's face was one of pure, unmitigated evil, a look Gandolfini had never come close to affecting for any scene in this series.

I concur in that it was not a look of hatred or of vitriol or of anger. It was completely calm, sure, devoid of emotion, and yet showing complete commitment and conviction. Even the slightest grimace or scowl or uncomfortable shifting of his gaze elsewhere or tight clenching of his fingers on Chris' nose would have changed significantly what Tony appeared to be feeling (or not feeling) during those crucial moments. Instead, he stared at Chris with an unwavering, flat gaze, turning his head slowly at one moment only to ensure that the passing motorist above had not seen him. There was never a trace at any time of the ambivalence or sorrow he showed when he shot Pussy; the hatred when he strangled the rat guy in College; the explosion of anger when he bashed Ralph's head into the floor and pummeled his face; the sense of sad, solemn duty when he shot Tony B and immediately felt for his pulse. The murder of Chris felt incomprehensibly like the most personal and least personal of all Tony's murders, all at the same time.

And when it comes to assessing what Tony was or wasn't feeling afterward, I'm surprised so many are ignoring Tony's own admissions, especially as they are unflattering and therefore circumstantially more credible. In his dream therapy session, the one where his subconscious is totally in charge of airing out repressed truths, he admits pain and then immediately calls himself on his own bullshit. He admits his relief, even his satisfaction that he killed Chris. He readily admits all the selfish justifications for killing him. He comments that he's murdered friends before but that this is much different . . . i.e., with this one, there are no mixed feelings, no guilt, no being "prostate with grief."

His real therapy session was remarkably similar with only the most obviously necessary of fictions inserted to shield Melfi from certain truths. The bottom line was that, as Tony told her, he didn't feel any abiding grief.

So the question remains a rather simple one IMO: Why wasn't Tony aggrieved over this death, and is that lack of grief consistent with the character we've seen over the years?

If Chase was in fact telling a mirrored tale of repressed father/son hatred through Cleaver and through Tony and Chris' relationship, a tale in which, from Tony's POV, they are both father and son, both themselves and each other, both Tony and Johnny Boy, both part of this nebulous whole that Tony came to believe in after his coma, then I have little problem with what has transpired since Kennedy and Heidi. It even makes beautiful, elegant sense. And it explains to my satisfaction why Tony can be so jubilant in his peyote casino trip, why he felt a need to embody Chris in Las Vegas by banging his goomar and indulging in his lifestyle, and why he felt a surge of recognition when the sun (son) rose and flared at him. If killing Chris was the symbolic keystone for Tony ultimately rejecting his own father, his value system, and his notions about manhood, then I understand the otherwise incongruous behavior. It's hard to be mired in grief when you are simultaneously celebrating a triumph that's been a lifetime in the making.

I don't mean to sound impatient or as if I'm prejudging where this is going. But I'm just nervous that this last episode, Second Coming, provided little to no continuing fodder for the one theory that seemed to make some sense to me. I need something more concrete than what we've been given in order to feel secure in this interpretation and reconnect with Tony. And I certainly need to see something from Tony that indicates he's taken the next step beyond a mere symbolic slaying of Johnny Boy . . . and that's to consciously, overtly reject what Johnny Boy stood for. If that means admitting to AJ that he, Tony, is a fraud who wasted his life pursuing an identity that he knows to be ugly and corrput -- right before blowing his own brains out -- that's fine. I ain't picky about how it happens as long as it happens.

Here's what I wonder -- if, in these last two episodes, we do see some sort of breakdown regarding Christopher, will it have come too late?

It won't be too late for me, and, in fact, is what I deem necessary to reclaim the lost connection to his character. It's not that I want or expect him to go into paroxisms of grief and sorrow for killing some lovely, innocent boy. Chis doesn't merit that kind of grief from anyone.

Rather, I need an explanation for why this murder was so different from all the others from Tony's perspective and how that difference resonates with and reinforces the history of this character and the path he seemed to be on immediately prior to Kennedy and Heidi, one of condemning irresponsible parents, and particularly bad fathers, and one of recognizing his own failures as AJ's father.

[TheBing]

Tony is a mobster, he is an evil criminal, that is his character's persona. Tony is shown that he has killed himself or ordered killed enemies, many of his friends and acquances, family members, may kill more of them or lead them to death. He has put his personal family at great risk. His decision to help Chris die was within his character. Chris has disrespected him for years with his drug use, alcohol abuse, the Cleaver movie, having a girlfirend that was ratting to the Feds and possibly attracting more interest from law enforcement if he got caught drunk/drugged, dealing, and so on. Tony had the unique opportunity to get rid of one of his biggest problems, and made the perversely prudent decision. I also think Chris knew he had to go, he had FU'd very badly for years, almost killed Tony in the accident, if survived would face major pain for the rest of his life. That Chris doesn't fight back Tony plugging his nose indicates his acquicance to Tony's act.
I do think that Tony is disturbed by and is guilty inside about his ending Chris' life, referencing and trying to justify it by the references to the tree limb going into the baby seat in the accident, his reactions to Chris' new wife with the child. His guilt let to his escape to Las Vegas, seeing Sonia, using peyote. That time and experience was his perverse way of grieving.
I don't expect a good ending for Tony in this series - either by murder by Phil/NY or one of his own gang or even an unexpected 3rd party, taking his own life, going into Witness Protection, dying of a heart attack or other illness or worse, going into a purgetory of mental illness - alive but not sane, living like Junior in a home.

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Was it so unexpected for this opportunistic killer to rid himself of a problem (Christopher) when the opportunity presented itself?

For me at least killing Christopher was not the dividing point between a "good" Tony and a "bad" Tony: He has always been both. Consequently, I find it hard to take Christopher's murder as THE event that would make me detach emotionally from Tony. Tony's apparent lack of remorse about Christopher's murder MAY signal that Tony is beyond complete and total redemption. But why should we expect him to grieve for someone with whom he no longer has any emotional attachments himself? Those bonds were severed (if they ever really existed completely at all) with the premiere of Cleaver. Even if Tony still had genuine emotional connections to Christopher, have some of us abandoned all hope that Tony won't face his grief over this act? Or do I detect a "wait and see" attitude about this?

Let me pose a question to those who now feel emotionally (or otherwise) detached from Tony Soprano: what were your expectations for the ending and have they been completely dashed or are you just pessimistic that your expectations might not be partially or completely met?

All good questions, billymac. My last post, which I was still composing before you posted your last reply, answers it in part.

But I'll just underscore what jouster said: it was far less the murder and much more Tony's demeanor during and after that has left me so detached. Death has a way, I suspect even for murderers (although I'm just speculating:icon_mrgreen:), of wiping away the bad memories and leaving only the good, especially in the short term. I don't care how much resentment and hatred had crept in, there's no way that the Tony who cried so touchingly over Christopher 4 episodes earlier did not still reserve enough love for him to grieve his death. It makes absolutely no sense to me. I don't think even someone of Tony's ilk can neatly compartmentalize all their feelings into discrete boxes and conveniently get rid of the one labeled "love" on a whim. The whole series is predicated on Tony's inability to completely, effectively dam up his spring of humanity (which necessarily includes the capacity to love and to mourn). If it was there at all, some part of it still has to be there.

So, yes, I'm taking a wait and see approach, but the time is fast approaching for no more wait, only see.:icon_wink:

[Joe]

before the second coming i firmly held the belief that tony's grief/sorrow/guilt whatever over chris's murder would eventually catch up with him....that he would sort of come to some realization about the reality of what he actually did and have a complete breakdown in a way that surpasses anything he felt for adrianna/pussy/tony b....but now? i dunno...it seems like the chris storyline is a dead issue...and quite a crappy resolution to an amazing element of the show

i reserve any official judgment until they wrap the series...but seriously...this season is all over the place. it would be strange to build up this "father figure" angle to such a massive degree and then not really do anything with it....

i am actually of the opinion that fly is right in her assumption that tony was symbolically killing off what he understood to be one of his own currupt "father figures" but for that theory to ring true...we need it to bleed into the show in a "real" way. im not saying we have to be spoonfed....but this is ridiculous

[Marlowe]

Love this site and have been pouring through the various posts for the last couple of months. It is quite an accomplishment to maintain a fan site that offers up such insightful analysis. I thought this would be a good topic to bust my cherry on.

I have to say that Kennedy and Heidi didn't damage my emotional investment in Tony but then I never thought of Tony as being on the road to redemption. The killing of Chrissy is something Tony had been building up to for a long time. His apparent lack of remorse was surprising but I think it is very in keeping with the development of Tony's character over the series and the prior 5 episodes specifically.

"Soprano Home Movies", "Remember When", "Chasing It" and "Walk Like a Man" really show Tony, as Little Carmine would put it, "at the precipice of an enormous crossroads". Tony's self loathing really seemed to be getting the better of him and he had been lashing out in monstorous ways - forcing Bobby to do the hit, almost whacking Paulie, sh**ing all over Hesh, sending Vito Jr off to some disciplinary school, enabling Chrissy and then laughing at him, etc. It seemed to me that Tony had crossed a line somewhere during that birthday party and became this unlikeable, bullying pri**. IMO, the killing of Christopher was the culmination of that mean streak since I don't see it as Tony symbolically killing his father, I see it more as Tony symbolically killing a part of himself. This explains for me his joyous "I get it" in Vegas and his apparent return to the "good ol' loveable sociopath" Tony witnessed in The Second Coming.

I don't think it is an accident that the episode after killing Chris, Tony saves AJ's life. It seems Tony has already made his choice between his family and the "family".

Also, I happen to think killing Christopher had a profound emotional impact on Tony which is exactly why we haven't seen him come to terms with it. It is too big for Tony to deal with and the feelings of loss are mixed by a sense of relief. When Tony was complaining about others showing their grief I took it as Tony saying "I loved this kid more than they ever did and I KILLED him. I am hurting much more than they are and I am not bawling like an infant."

I am still very much interested in Tony as a character. Is he as loveable as he was in Season 1? No, he isn't. Does that make me enjoy the show any less? No, it doesn't. The arc seems very "real" to me and sometimes "real" can be murky and dark. I, for one, am more interested in where the show is going now then I was at the beginning of the season which is saying something because I am a bit of a fanatic.

Anyhoo, that's my take on it.

[EdaMaria]

I keep rewatching the episode to see if I change my mind, but so far I strongly disagree that Tony is showing 'no signs of remorse' regarding Chrisopher.

My argument on why Tony's behavior may be hard to read and seemingly inconsistent with prior 'whackings' is b/c this is the first time we've seen Tony murder someone so far outside the understood LCN rules. The next closest I think would be Ralph - but at least with Ralph a fight had broken out. And of course there was all the Ralphie baggage. I keep thinking how someone in T's crew (Vito?) remarked after Ralph's death that none of them was safe if Tony was willing to kill someone over a horse. Personally I was shocked many episodes ago when Tony was seriously considering killing Paulie, ostensibly just b/c he was talking too much and MAY possibly be a threat in the future. Such preemptive murder, like we later saw with Christopher, shows just how incredibly intense Tony's anxiety and immense dread over who will be next to betray him (or literally shoot him as Junior did) is weighing on him. for us, killing a beloved nephew/son-like figure in response to such anxiety is beyond unthinkable, but Tony has already gone so far down that slippery slope of rationalized murder that I definitely think it fits his character. and yes I think we are smack dab in the middle of the 'total decompensation' Melfi spoke of earlier. but in my opinion that doesn't mean Tony has totally lost his humanity, however heinous his actions. and it 100 times over doesn't fit Tony's character to believe that he's suddenly without conscience and can get out of this without paying a huge psychic toll. and on another note, i suggest we all go reread 'Richard III' and engage in some fun compare & contrast!

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Marlowe, welcome to the forum and thanks for that fine first post. I sure hope you and EdaMaria are right.:icon_wink:

[Detective Hunt]

I am still invested in the show, and Tony for that matter, regardless of what occurred in Kennedy and Heidi. That we have had only one episode since then I think suggests there has not been enough time to fully show the effects it has had on Tony. Given that there are only two left I can understand some impatience or worry that such a realization/decompensation might not occur, but I think we have to wait and let Chase play this thing out. I've given him the benefit of the doubt many times, and if I can do that after the ill-planned long Vito arc, I can do that for just about anything. Chase has his reasons, I imagine. We might not like it in the end, but we've loved so much of his creation prior to that, I think it's not too much to suggest giving him the last two to say what he wants to say. Just my two boxes of ziti.

[chaseisgod]

In contrast, his ostensible motives for killing Chris were almost entirely selfish. If you discount Tony's concern for Kaitlyn (which many have done), his motives reduced to worry about Chris flipping and giving Tony up to the FBI, disgust in Chris for being a drug addict, resignation that that would never change, and extreme hurt and resentment over the hatred Chris aimed subliminally at Tony through Cleaver. .

This will teach me to post quickly. Of course you're right -- Tony B's killing and Chris's were different.

I might quibble on the notion that it was entirely selfish to kill Christopher. As others and perhaps you have pointed out through the years, Tony has put up with behavior from Chris that he almost certainly would not have tolerated from anyone else. An addicted gangster is a threat, for any number of reasons, and a juicy target for the Feds. Chris had fired a gun at Tony's car, had brought a gun into the Bing, had relapsed repeatedly. His girlfriend did cooperate with the Feds. If killing Tony B was necessary to maintain peace, and to help the greatest number of people, then I think Tony S could say that he was protecting his crew by whacking Chris. Chris, as he himself pointed out to JT Dolan, could have brought the whole house of cards down with one phone call. He put everyone, not just Tony, at risk. Then you have Cleaver and all that represented. Would any self-respecting real Mob Boss have put up with that?

But you're right again about that look. That one particular shot, where he looks like the face of pure evil, we had not seen that before. We, the viewers, had generally been able to justify Tony's violent actions in the past (although those beatings of Georgie were pretty evil, just not murderous) because they seemed justified or because he seemed remorseful. Why Chase decided to feature this particular side of Tony so late in the game is something I predict we'll be discussing long after the series is over, particularly if there's no resolution.

I keep coming back to Cleaver and the notion that someone "comes back to life" to take out the boss. That has to be Christopher, and he's still waiting in Tony's subconscious to strike. If Christopher essentially died on that highway, and Tony is able to just keep on keeping on like nothing has happened, then I will admit it: I understand nothing about this show. (I know what you're thinking. Be nice.)

[Detective Hunt]

I'm not so sure the murders were that different. I mean, how has Tony S. really grieved for Tony B.? Or did he not care enough? One might consider his therapeutic breakthrough with Melfi a sign that he does not - that he is relieved after unloading the feelings of bile about himself due to lingering feelings of guilt over Tony B.'s going away while he himself did not thanks to his own "weakness." Realizing that it was he, Tony S., that needed to forgive himself and thus nothing to do with a cousin he supposedly truly cared for. In truth, all Tony S. ever did for Tony B. was lure him back into the life (when Tony B. wanted to go straight) and then keep him at arm's length rather than giving him his supposed due for years of silence in the can. This lead to Tony B. taking the extra money from NY which led to NY's retaliation against Angelo which led to Tony B. gunning down Phil's brother. Tony S. tried to use his cousin just as he tried to use Christopher and when both backfired, he certainly took care of the matter but perhaps too late - a singular trait of Tony Soprano.

In Chris' case, Tony schooled him all those years, raised him in the ranks, made Chris his supposed heir apparent, but then did nothing to bolster the spirit of the kid and everything to put him down when he needed it the most. Tony made sure Chris was placed in the worst possible environment from the beginning, even pulling him closer by having Chris murder the alleged killer of his own father. Ade's portion of this really only comes at the end, and I think sealed the deal. From that point on, both were irrevocably tainted for the other. I imagine Tony blames Chris as much as Chris blames Tony for what happened there, and those lingering feelings festered to bring us Cleaver and Chris' death.

I've no doubt there is emotion in Tony that has yet to be dealt with or understood in regards Chris' death, but it's not just that one death that Tony would have to come to terms with for him to be an "enlightened" boss or "better Tony." He has an entire laundry list, and some of them he might have been able to avoid - Tony B. and Chris to be sure.

Again - I think what is important is what end result we get when the show has finished. Do we expect to see Tony as a fully changed man? If so, then yes - we definitely would need to see some of the grieving process and result of Chris' murder on Tony. Or do we expect to see Tony stay in the mafia and continue as boss? If so, I'd counter that any type of realization such as owning his feelings about Chris would do him more harm than good. It would perhaps give him lingering guilt for the rest of his life, perhaps ensuring that the panic attacks continue. Likewise with AJ. If Tony is unable to save his son from "the life" and its results, then a Tony who is "aware" would surely have to feel guilty over such and thus forever be tormented by it. To be successful as the boss, Tony must place such thoughts and emotions outside of himself - compartmentalize (as he is certainly familiar with) and move on without second thought. Awful for Tony the human being, but exactly what is called for for Tony as Boss.

In all scenarios, the end Tony we get is changed somehow with new knowledge. It's just that such knowledge might not be something that saves him as a human being. In fact, it may doom him.

Fly - I know from reading some of your older posts, that you have a bit of a vision that God is working through Chase somehow. This may have changed since the last time you wrote on such, or it may be that your realization now that such is not the case is causing your disappointment with the show (and you must not be the only one given the poll results.) I'm not sure how to counsel anyone on that other than to say, give the man the chance to say what he means to say and then judge his total statement. It may very well end without ones views changing from how they are now. But at least one has the total picture to work with. Seems only fair. :smile:

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Fly - I know from reading some of your older posts, that you have a bit of a vision that God is working through Chase somehow. This may have changed since the last time you wrote on such, or it may be that your realization now that such is not the case is causing your disappointment with the show (and you must not be the only one given the poll results.)

No that hasn't really changed in that, regardless of where Tony ends up, the show has provoked a tremendous amount of consideration, thought, and discussion about morality, spiritual immortality, judgment, redemption, and other themes that are the preoccupations of various religions. I can't think of any work of similar scope that has done this in such profound, completely original, and sublte ways. So the feeling that there is divine inspiration working within Chase has not changed.

I'm not sure how to counsel anyone on that other than to say, give the man the chance to say what he means to say and then judge his total statement. It may very well end without ones views changing from how they are now. But at least one has the total picture to work with. Seems only fair. :smile:I guess this thread inevitably led to places that seem like pre-judgment, but it really was not conceived at all with that in mind, and, for the most part, I think I've avoided going there. This thread totally comes out of a need to share and cope with a feeling towards Tony that is completely new, unexpected, and, frankly, very, very depressing to me, especially as we're this close to the end.

I never dreamed that 2 episodes before the finale, I could see Tony drag his shivering, half-drowned son from a suicide attempt in the highly symbolic pool, see him cradle him in his arms, crying and calling him "baby", and yet feel as emotionally detached as I felt. The empathy that I wanted to feel for Tony, the response that I know I would have had just two weeks earlier to that sight did not happen, and it did not happen for the precise reason that wgaryw articulated. It's like the old Barry Manilow song, "I've been up, down, trying to get the feeling again, all around." But it's just not happening. And that in itself is very disappointing, even though I do wonder if mine is the reaction intended by Chase and company.

I will point out that my emotional reaction, or lack of it, has not IMO at all influenced my ability to assess the quality of the shows as drama, as I rated K & H a 10 and Second Coming a 9. So it's not like I'm saying this is bad writing.

Then I have to deal with a trickle down effect of the emotional disconnect to Tony, who has always been the lynchpin to the whole thing for me. Now, after hearing that Meadow is dating a mob brat, has changed paths from medicine to law (sorry, billymac, you know I love you:icon_biggrin:), and after witnessing her essentially put her first hit/beatdown order out on a guy, I'm saying to myself, "Why do I give a flying you-know-what about what happens to this bratty, whiny, hypocritical heifer?"

Solely on the brilliance of Edie Falco, I had a moment of genuine empathy for Carmela in the hospital, and I guess part of me was a little more indulgent of Carm than anyone else this episode because she at least crapped all over Tony.:icon_biggrin: But it's equally hard to keep caring at this point about someone who's anesthetized herself to decades of corrosion and corruption in her own home with frequent shopping sprees at expensive stores.

It's as if the whole emotional apparatus binding me to this family is suddenly collapsing. And I just never, ever imagined that would be the case.

I'm not so sure the murders were that different. I mean, how has Tony S. really grieved for Tony B.? Or did he not care enough? All I needed to know about how Tony was affected by killing Tony B was shown to me in the few minutes of that scene in the motel with Christopher. As you can see, I'm easy. You don't have to force feed me. I will gladly use fork and knife and chew myself. I just can't do it if I'm presented with no food at all.

I've no doubt there is emotion in Tony that has yet to be dealt with or understood in regards Chris' death, but it's not just that one death that Tony would have to come to terms with for him to be an "enlightened" boss or "better Tony." He has an entire laundry list, and some of them he might have been able to avoid - Tony B. and Chris to be sure.Of course I'll only know how that will affect me if and when I see it. But I go back to the point of the thread. I'm just troubled at how I can still be feeling this way over two weeks after K & H and less than two weeks before the last scene of this series. It's my own emotional reactions I'm scrutinizing. Consider this thread more a therapy session for people who are feeling like me than any pre-judgment of how the show will end.:icon_wink:

[De Novo]

I haven't posted this half-season yet, and Fly I respect your opinions, but I think anyone who honestly believed Tony would find redemption was kidding themselves with regard to both Tony as a character and Chase as a writer. The show has been full of dread and misanthropy for pretty much the whole run, and especially since Season 4. It was always going to end badly, or ambiguously and disturbingly at best, and as this season in particular has reminded us, Tony and the culture he represents are a blight on nature, morality, and basically the entire human race. I don't share Chase's misanthropy, but I can see it.

Tony is a complicated person, but he is ultimately not good by any remotely objective standard. I don't know about the whole "killing Chris = killing Johnny Boy" analogy; I think it's a bit of a stretch, even given his recent subconscious rebellions against all his father figures, and that the act was more akin to Tony killing his own "business son," destroying his own dead-end future, and feeling utterly relieved. The real tragedy is that Tony is so utterly helpless and hopeless with respect to his own biological son, a loser who reflects all of his failings and none of his strengths.

I do think Tony killing Chris is the most self-indulgent thing Tony's ever done, a lapse back into ignorance and selfishness and gluttony that he managed to psychologically disguise as a noble or family-oriented gesture. However, this is the exact sort of thing he has done all along in virtually every aspect of his life. He's done a few "good" things, sure, but the overwhelming net effect of his existence is negative, as the monks said, as his family members discover and repress, as the smoldering asbestos reminds us (haven't seen anyone mention it, but did anyone catch the use of that Pretenders song, first with the dumping of garbage at a gas station, now with asbestos into the Meadowlands? "Toxic" Tony is now literally so, and more dangerous than ever).

"Kennedy and Heidi" represent right and wrong, plain and simple, and as the show's theme song has stated at the beginning of every single episode, Tony was never told the difference. That's what makes him an irredeemable figure. All I'm hoping for is a good resolution for the narrative; I have no hopes for Tony's soul or character, especially since he's fictional.

[MrMojok]

Hi all-

I just found your board... unfortunately only two weeks before the end of my favorite show ever. Great discussions here, and I know I'll spend weeks poring through all the old posts and threads. I've been looking for a decent Sopranos board with thought-provoking discussion for quite a while... I really, REALLY don't know how I have managed to miss this one, because it seems to be everything I was looking for :icon_cry:

On to the subject at hand--

First off, Chris is my favorite goon of all. I'll get that out of the way right off the bat. What Tony did shocked and disgusted me, even though I've never been foolish enough to think that Chris would have a happy end to a long and fulfilling life.

I'm not one of those people who has been rooting for Tony all along. I mean, I've known the whole time that Tony is what he is. WhattayaGonnaDo? I did used to look at him in a different way though. Because at one time it seemed like there was a different side that surfaced in him from time to time. Like when he burned down Artie's restaraunt to prevent a murder there. It was ignorant and foolish, but there was a certain bit of good intention there. It seems like we used to see that side of him a lot more.

That started to change long before 'Kennedy and Heidi'. The first time I remember REALLY looking at Tony in a different light was when he whipped Councillor Zellman with the belt because he found him with Irina... and after Zellman had already told Tony about what was going on. That was the first time I looked at Tony and thought, whoa. Seriously, whoa.

His character arc has been on a descent for quite a while now. I'm still interested in Tony's fate... I'm interested in everyone's fate. I suppose Kennedy and Heidi convinced me once and for all of Tony's character deterioration; there were a lot of signs for a long time but this really drove it home for me.

I've still got a lot of emotional investment in Tony and all the characters. But that episode made me dread the last ones, in a way. The sense of impending doom is palpable.

Life to me is a series of choices, one after the other... and while the main characters have all made some bad choices way before the series began, it becomes all the sadder to me now, seeing it so close to the end, and knowing what is going to happen. Well, I don't really know of course... but I think we can be sure there aren't going to be any happy endings for anyone.

Chris had his chance to get off that ship... Carmella did too. Now Meadow is making the wrong choices as well.

This episode drove home for me... FINALLY (I am a bit dense).. that all bets are off in this storyline. If the father is going to kill the son (which I think is essentially what we saw here) then who knows what's going to happen to the rest of the characters.

Sorry if I rambled a bit here.

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

De Novo, welcome back to the forum. Glad you joined us again before the end.:icon_wink:

I assume you had a problem logging into your old account. I'd be happy to merge the two so all your posts will show up under a unified screen name. Just let me know which name you prefer.

I haven't posted this half-season yet, and Fly I respect your opinions, but I think anyone who honestly believed Tony would find redemption was kidding themselves with regard to both Tony as a character and Chase as a writer.

I'm a sucker for underdogs. And that means that my rooting interests are always undertaken with a certain understanding of their improbability.

But I'm not sure that there's one universal idea of what "redemption" really means for this character. The term gets used a lot, but there are several scenarios that would ultimately satisfy some version of what I would call "redemption", and most of them have seemed well within the realm of possibility until very recently.

For example: Tony, seeing the future he dreaded for his son starting to materialize; tiring of the constant stresses -- physical, legal, emotional -- of heading a criminal enterprise; increasingly starting to hate the men surrounding him; and with prodding from an ever more worried Carmela, who he finally is beginning to believe may love him for reasons beyond his identity as a kick-ass alpha male and successful mob boss; decides to simply quit . . . retire, leave the mob and move away from all its influences, in the way that Eugene wanted to.

I honestly think this is an entirely reasonable scenario based on the content of this series as a whole. It's redemption of a sort because Tony would change his way of life and likely ensure that his son would not become a man like himself. Yet it's more palatable to the committed cynics of the world (Chase?) because it would proceed more out of purely selfish, unenlightened exigencies than out of any real reckoning with morality or conscience.

Another scenario, less likely but which I'd prefer to see, would involve either his wife or children dying because of some danger or event his way of life set in motion. Very Godfatheresque, of course, but that movie doesn't own the patent on bad karma, and a phenomenon as real as reaping what you sow shouldn't be discounted simply because thousands of other stories have used it. In this case, the redemption would come in Tony gradually accepting that HE caused the death, HE destroyed what he loved most, and in accepting that his suffering thereafter is just. If this was going to happen, though, I'd like to have seen it about 8-9 episodes ago so that the eps since would depict the process of that acceptance.

I also think a sort of redemption could have ensued from a less sensational scenario, something as simple as having to watch Carmela slowly die of cancer. As someone who lived with and cared for a cancer victim for two years (my mother), it's hard not to be transformed in some way by the experience.

My mother certainly was. The total disintegration of her vanity over the course of her illness was very nearly miraculous. When it started, she wouldn't set foot in public without makeup; would hide in the house when unexpected visitors caught her cosmetically "unprepared"; was hostile, obsessively private, and often dishonest about her age; and insisted that her young grandchildren call her by her first name. By the end, she was openly appearing in front of people with no makeup and bald as a billiard and was laughingly admitting that she felt like a "grandmother" and wanted to be addressed accordingly. Put this one up there with changing water into wine.:icon_biggrin:

I could see Tony transformed by having to care for Carmela in a similar scenario, especially if it had come directly on the heels of his own shooting, when he was so moved at how Carmela had taken care of him. Tony needs a ride? Try a roller coaster. All of the tests and daily treatments and more tests and more daily treatments and waiting and false hopes and dashed hopes and recurrences and side effects and treatments for side effects and treatments for the side effects of treatments for side effects -- right up until the final blow when it comes down to a number . . . as in weeks or months left.

For all Tony's cheating, for all the years that he increased Carmela's material appetites by communicating his feelings only through expensive gifts, I've never doubted that he loves her. I can see him give her that watch, weeks after one of the worst fights in their history (and only minutes before she threw it back in his face), and still understand and believe that he DOES in fact consider her "his life". There has always been a profound love story there, IMO, and love is the ultimate redemptive power.

If he were engaged in doing the very thing Carmela thought him incapable of during the worst times of their separation, if he was "helping her to the bathroom when she could no longer walk there herself", I can't believe he wouldn't seriously reorder the priorities in his life. I can't believe Carm would spend those last months worrying about Iagos and new Mercedes instead of worrying about her son's future and doing everything she could to extract a commitment from Tony to take care of their boy.

If you fundamentally believe that Tony lacks the capacity to love that way, then I agree any thought of redemption is foolish. But I've always credited him with that ability. He loves very few people. But with respect to those few, the love is real and powerful.

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Hi, MrMojok. Welcome to the forum:smile: Sorry you didn't find us sooner. You'll just have to make up for it with a blitz of posts these last couple of weeks. I'm sure there'll be plenty to talk about.:icon_wink:

[Mafiaphile]

First , to clarify some terms I'm a little confused about in this thread: My personal INTEREST in Tony has never been greater & will maintain 'til the end of the series (I gotta know what happens) , while my EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT has been eroding over the last few episodes. I think Chase, ever the realist, has been doing this on purpose to prepare us for the ending.
Tony has always been the most complex, interesting character (hell, it's HIS show) here. All the rest are just dumb, one-dimensional wise-guys, civilians, goomahs and extended family members. Even Melfi & Carm are not totally aware of all the dimensions (or "compartments") of Tony, they only knowing the ones Tony "allows" them to see .
My point is, Tony is very bright, deep & insightful (as Artie puts it, he's playing chess & sees 12 moves ahead), but has always been able to "compartmentalize" the various facets of his life. Over the course of the series we've seen Son, Mobster, Nephew, Brother, Father, Husband, Gambler, Crook and now ultimately Killer or egocentric Sociopath(?). All these compartments have always been there from the beginning; Chase does not introduce anything "new" (like the gambling or the stone-faced killing), he just allows us to see it when he deems fit.
Now, nearing the finale, all the "compartments" are bleeding into each other and maybe we are about to see the "true" Tony. That's the payoff, & maybe we're not going to like what we find...

[clementine]

If he were engaged in doing the very thing Carmela thought him incapable of during the worst times of their separation, if he was "helping her to the bathroom when she could no longer walk there herself", I can't believe he wouldn't seriously reorder the priorities in his life. I can't believe Carm would spend those last months worrying about Iagos and new Mercedes instead of worrying about her son's future and doing everything she could to extract a commitment from Tony to take care of their boy.


The big question is, when do we get to watch your HBO series, Fly?:icon_wink:

I'm not holding my breath waiting for Carmela to wake up in the last couple episodes. I think she's too much of a stand-in for the American people/people in general, who will turn a blind eye to the corruption of their leaders as long as the stream of consumer goods keeps flowing (this is not a reference to any particular government leader or administration--I don't think who's president or who controls Congress has much affect on this). As long as she allows herself to be anesthetized (comfortably numb?) by the acquisition of stuff she is never going to do the soul-searching necessary to realize what she is. It seems to be a near-universal human trait. When the Berlin wall came down I watched as the Western reporters kept asking the East Germans about freedom and democracy, and pretty much every single one responded with their plans to buy VCRs and refrigerators.

If you fundamentally believe that Tony lacks the capacity to love that way, then I agree any thought of redemption is foolish. But I've always credited him with that ability. He loves very few people. But with respect to those few, the love is real and powerful.

I agree that Tony is capable of real love. That's why to me he's not a true sociopath, however much he may behave like one. It's also what makes him fundamentally unsuited to be a mobster--thus the panic attacks, etc. However, he can viciously turn on someone in an instant. Meadow is just about the only one who's never been on the receiving end of his wrath, isn't she? Has Sil?

[clementine]

First , to clarify some terms I'm a little confused about in this thread: My personal INTEREST in Tony has never been greater & will maintain 'til the end of the series (I gotta know what happens) , while my EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT has been eroding over the last few episodes. I think Chase, ever the realist, has been doing this on purpose to prepare us for the ending.

[snip]
Now, nearing the finale, all the "compartments" are bleeding into each other and maybe we are about to see the "true" Tony. That's the payoff, & maybe we're not going to like what we find...

Great post, Mafiaphile! I like your distinction between interest and emotional investment. I did feel numb and betrayed while watching "Kennedy & Heidi," but I'm even more emotionally invested in the show and its outcome, as opposed to Tony's personal fate. Maybe I'm just a dark person, but I can only think of a handful of movies or books that I love that have sympathetic protaganists and happy endings, anyway. As long as the last two episodes are well done, and I assume they will be, I think I'm going to be OK whether Tony embraces his monstrous self and becomes the capo di tutti capi, retires to the Bahamas with the grandkids, or something in between. (Sure wish we could pour you a big glass of red wine, FOMW, and hold your hand for the next two episodes so you'll be OK in case it's #1.)

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

(Sure wish we could pour you a big glass of red wine, FOMW, and hold your hand for the next two episodes so you'll be OK in case it's #1.)

Clementine, I'm just touched (genuinely) that so many people have cared about my distress over this, LOL. Rest assured that I will have a nice cabernet sauvignon on hand for the next week plus. I am prepared to drink a toast to you all, if not to Tony.:icon_wink:

[TheBing]

Tony has always been the most complex, interesting character (hell, it's HIS show) here. All the rest are just dumb, one-dimensional wise-guys, civilians, goomahs and extended family members. Even Melfi & Carm are not totally aware of all the dimensions (or "compartments") of Tony, they only knowing the ones Tony "allows" them to see .
My point is, Tony is very bright, deep & insightful (as Artie puts it, he's playing chess & sees 12 moves ahead), but has always been able to "compartmentalize" the various facets of his life. Over the course of the series we've seen Son, Mobster, Nephew, Brother, Father, Husband, Gambler, Crook and now ultimately Killer or egocentric Sociopath(?). All these compartments have always been there from the beginning; Chase does not introduce anything "new" (like the gambling or the stone-faced killing), he just allows us to see it when he deems fit.
Now, nearing the finale, all the "compartments" are bleeding into each other and maybe we are about to see the "true" Tony. That's the payoff, & maybe we're not going to like what we find...

This to me is a key point about Tony and other mobsters their ability to -'compartmentalize' their lifes - as Mafiaphile discusses in parts of his post I copied to here. Some seem to have fewer compartments or better able to keep them further apart - especially as to wifes and children from their mob 'work' and life. They also compartmentalize their morality - they can rationalize the killing of a rat or someone who crosses them or owes them a loansharking or gambling debt yet show empthy for a loved one. They can cheat on a wife, but will always return the them as they need that anchor in their lives the whores don't. I agree that for Tony his 'compartments' are 'bleeding into each other', perhaps due to deep moral conflicts in his life he can no longer rationalize. I have always felt that Tony was a 'reluctant' mobster, the panic attacks are a manistification of the conflict of his 'reluctance'
For many in America today, we have to compartmentalize our lives more than ever, with a different morality as to our work vs. family and we have conflicts with that. Perhaps that is part of the conflicts Tony expresses in his first meeting with Melfi, where he discusses that people like his Grandfather were at the beginning of America and the Mafia, and today we are exiting the America we knew. America has matured and in the USA the Italian based Mafia is dying, it's intended function to help the Italian immigrants survive in the USA no longer needed as 'Made in America'.
I do want to see what happens in the next and last episodes - especially as to Tony and what the final message Chase has for us in this series.

[SalmonSushi]

I would have to say, to answer the question, that my emotional investment in Tony was unchanged by the episode. However, this is based on the rather large assumption that there is an explanation forthcoming regarding Tony’s revelation. Once his revelation has been fully fleshed out, I believe that we will have the tools to understand his behavior in “Kennedy and Heidi.”

The issue here, as I see it, is that while Tony “gets it,” we don’t (yet). Tony’s behavior throughout “Kennedy and Heidi”—from the look on his face while killing Christopher to his numbness at the funeral to the peyote trip—was a bit of a departure for him. And it seems that Tony himself was at a loss to explain the feelings that were causing this behavior. However, I think it’s clear that, by the episode’s end, Tony figured it out.

Many have noted that “The Second Coming” appeared to forget Tony’s revelation. I think that the immediacy of the crises in the episode (involving real or perceived threats to both Tony’s children) partially justifies this. There is still something large looming in Tony’s psyche that, while introduced in the desert, has yet to manifest itself in Tony’s actions.

I am certain that it will, however. The events foreshadowed by “Cleaver” are ostensibly only half-complete. The boss has killed his soldier. Sometime in the next two episodes, we will be treated to Act 2 of Cleaver—Christopher’s “revenge.” I am not talking about Christopher rising from the dead, or even about Tony being pinched, say, for his murder. Rather, I think that Christopher will be the impetus for some cataclysmic internal event that will harm Tony deeply. When Tony is forced to deal with Christopher again, I am certain that issues/emotions/grief/regret/anger surrounding his nephew will surface and give us the satisfaction we are hoping for.

I think the "answer" to the Tony we saw in this episode will be offered to us at the same time as Tony’s revelation is explained. The two, in my mind, are inextricably entwined.

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Great post, SalmonSushi. I especially like your point that Cleaver itself offers the foreshadowing in some way. A couple of other posters have made similar arguments that they felt Christopher would somehow haunt Tony or be his undoing at the end.

Second Coming did disappoint me in terms of playing on the week before. Beside the fact that as soon as Tony walked in the back of Satriale's he was looking as gregarious and jocular as if he'd just won 100K at the track, the content of his "revelation" to Melfi just fell flat. (I also agree with the poster that felt Melfi was pretty stupid for not seeing that the analogy was poor respecting mothers in general.) At any rate, I could have sworn Tony's revelation had much more to do with Christopher and his father than with Livia. Guess we'll find out in due course.

[haironmelfistwat]

I'm a sucker for underdogs. And that means that my rooting interests are always undertaken with a certain understanding of their improbability.

Fly, I know how you feel. I'm the ultimate Chicago Cubs fan, so I'm used to hopeless situations...

Seriously, I lost a lot of feeling for Tony after he showed his lack of remorse for killing Christofuh. I think we're finally seeing that Tony doesn't give much of a shit for anybody except Tony. His almost blind selfishness seems out of character for a mob boss. Even a mob boss has to put the good of the family ahead of his own interests once in a while. I've never seen Tony do that.

It seems that Chase is making Tony unredeemable to prepare us for the ultimate Tony selfishness--flipping to save his own selfish ass. Don't be surprised if Tony flips and rats out everybody. Can't you seem them going into witness protection and Carm (another terribly selfish person at the end of the day) actually driving an old beat-up Toyota Tercel and going out for dinner at McDonalds? If Tony can't keep Carm in the lifestyle she's had, then, she might really leave him.

Of course, I'm projecting; I have no damned idea what's going to happen. I heard that Edie Falco said Chase filmed three endings. What would be really cool is after Chase picks the ending he wants and the series ends, HBO runs the other two endings and let the viewers decide which one was best. However, they will probably add the additional endings to a DVD set to sell more of them... Gee, do I sound cynical?

[SalmonSushi]

Second Coming did disappoint me in terms of playing on the week before. Beside the fact that as soon as Tony walked in the back of Satriale's he was looking as gregarious and jocular as if he'd just won 100K at the track, the content of his "revelation" to Melfi just fell flat. (I also agree with the poster that felt Melfi was pretty stupid for not seeing that the analogy was poor respecting mothers in general.) At any rate, I could have sworn Tony's revelation had much more to do with Christopher and his father than with Livia. Guess we'll find out in due course.

I suppose I should clarify what I mean by "revelation." I too was underwhelmed by Tony's conversation with Melfi, and personally feel that his "eureka" moment regarding motherhood did not represent the entirety of his experience in Las Vegas. I consider that insight to be merely the crumbs of a much larger revelation which, as Tony himself suggested, is presently just beyond his reach (perhaps in his subconscious).

I think that the true content of Tony's revelation will be revealed shortly through his actions. (Or Melfi will be able to peel it out of his subconscious so that we can really have a look at it.) I would argue that it did have more to do with Christopher, his father and life in general than with Livia--it just hasn't been given to us yet.

Then again, maybe Tony's Vegas revelation will turn out to be another "loose end" on the 10-year tapestry of loose ends that is The Sopranos. Maybe Tony really did lose the actual meaning of his revelation in the desert (or maybe it was all a drugged-out illusion). If this is the case, forget Tony--I may lose my emotional investment in the show and its writing. If we don't hear another word of Tony's revelation (or don't see it manifested in his actions somehow) I'm afraid the show will be guilty of some pretty weighty melodrama.

[De Novo]

De Novo, welcome back to the forum. Glad you joined us again before the end.:icon_wink:

I assume you had a problem logging into your old account. I'd be happy to merge the two so all your posts will show up under a unified screen name. Just let me know which name you prefer.
.

That would be great, thanks a lot. "De Novo" is fine -- will it be under the new password I created? I think I lost the confirmation email from my old account.

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Hi DeNovo. I'll merge the two accounts and leave your existing password. Just log in without the "part due".:icon_wink:

[lordroad]

I see I'm the only one thus far who chose choice D: "None of the above."

Let me explain.

It's simple, really. I lost all emotional ties with the show years ago. I think season 4 and season 5 were by and large awful. Gradually the intriguing anti-hero Tony Soprano, who sought counseling for panic attacks and ultimately "depression," became a psychotic goon without any redeeming affects. And as the show wore on and got more and more tired, I, the viewer, felt like I was getting my nose rubbed in it--as if it were a collective F-you from David Chase to the folks like me who once had some emotional investment in Tony.

Despite the "asshole bully" he is now, Tony was once a sympathetic character... he was charming, a tough guy, actually did care about people on true emotional levels (remember his buddy from high school in season 2 who Tony repeatedly tried to steer away from gambling, only to finally acquiesce once the guy had badgered him so much? Then think of how Chrissy reacted to the same scenario with JT Dolan... like the sociopathic predator Tony ultimately became, Chris revealed that was who he was all along when he nurtured his friend's downfall and got him in his debt). Tony also, arguably, felt remorse for whacking Pussy, as revealed in the flashback Christmas episode of season 3.

For seasons now this Tony has been dead, and in his place is this stereotyped violent thug who I have no emotional regard to and care about as I would horror movie cannon fodder--as in I want to see him die, and I want to see him die hard.

What is interesting about this downfall is it's a proximity bomb. Carmella is as disgusting as Tony is. She's the ultimate enabler, addicted to her lifestyle and the goods Tony constantly provides her, and she really doesn't care about anything aside from her lifestyle anymore. Personally, I'd love to see her go too, and I'd love to see her go down hard.

Reasons for these gradual yet very drastic character shifts? I can only speculate. But I think David Chase is disgusted by us--his fan base. He wants to stick it to us, see how long people can care about these revolting characters. I remember an interview once with Edie Falco and she was talking about how many women write to her telling her how much they admire her, and she was simply shocked as she felt her character was disgusting... and this was back in season 4, IIRC.

While I've enjoyed the majority of the episodes of season 6B, I've found a number of them to be absurd and stupid crap... Tony suddenly is a degenerate gambler? He goes out to the desert and gets high on peyote? Hell, why didn't David Chase save the Vito gay turn for a final episode, but apply it to the main man himself... Tony!

Finally, one thing I'd like to add for the record, is that I felt Tony was totally justified in killing Ade. I could never stand that whiny obnoxious character and it simply boggles my mind why anyone could possibly like her. She got way too much screen time, she was never a decent actress, and her informant story line went on waaaay too long to culminate in its very predictable end. The Chrissy side of the story was much more interesting and ultimately was a key factor in his demise at Tony's hands.

Whatever light, whatever glimmer of conflict within the villainous protagonist that is Tony, went out long ago. What we have now is just a reanimated corpse of an unredeemable, boring, and static thug... a Cleaver, if you will.

[Irishwiseguy]

I know I am bumping the thread but I want to respond to lordroads post. I don't think Tony's personality suddenly changed during season 4 and 5. In season 4 for example he still despised Ralph for well being Ralph. The brutal murder of Tracee etc.. Burning down the horse stable was the final straw. And I had to agree with Tony on that. Sure its "Just" a horse, or shes "just" a whore as Ralph so often said, but come on, what kind of prick does that? I think Tony still did have some sort of compassion during season 4 and 5. Its just that more pressure was put on him ("lack" of money in season 4, divorced in season 5). Particularly the divorce, Tony doesn't like to be called out on the bad he has done. It might seem that Tony was a "nicer" guy in the early seasons. Maybe thats because we still hadn't really seen what he was fully capable of? Or maybe he seemed to be against people worse then him in the earlier seasons.
But honestly Tony might appear charming and what not , but come on. In the fourth episode we saw him brutally choke a man to death while bringing his daughter around to colleges. I don't think his personality dramatically changed, I don't think it ever changed. He had always battled with himself on the things he had done. Kennedy and Heidi marked the point that he didn't care anymore about the bad he did, because whats the point? Who gives a shit? "I get it!" Although I think it was a sort of "I get it" but " I don't get it" sort of moment.