Any Thoughts on Marie Spatafore? Good Mom? Bad Mom?

[Splishak]

I found the scene with her on the phone with Tony fascinating. I got the sense she was not at all happy with sending Vito to the boot camp. I also got the feeling she was pissed off at Tony. She actually thinks it's fair for Tony to just give her $100K and that will fix her son? Doesn't she have any obligation there? Maybe something about parenting skills? I'm not saying that all of his problems could be solved by some good parenting skills. But it seems like she is not contributing any parenting skills here.

Anyway, while on the phone, I got the feeling like she wanted to tell Tony, "no" but was afraid to do that. Is it possible that there is more to the story about her moving to Maine? Could it be that she has her own reasons for wanting to get away from Jersey about more than just to "fix" Vito? What could she have been thinking about telling Tony? That his spending $18K wasn't enough and she wanted him to come up with the other $82K? Or could it have been that this wasn't really about her wanting to leave for Vito's sake?

In the end, I give Tony a lot of credit. He didn't have to give her anything. He met with the kid and tried to talk to him. I think he realized Vito had a point when he asked, "How am I supposed to fix that?", or "What does it have to do with me?" I think he decided the kid had a good point and that he decided to try and help him for that reason. I also think he wanted to win that $100K bet because he would have been happy to get Marie out of his hair and out of his pocket - once and forever. Maybe he should put her to work in Angie's body shop?

I also give Vito credit for telling Tony, "You don't even know who I am ... sometimes you call me Carlos Jr". By the way, I didn't get the joke when Tony told Vito that his father and Tony were friends and Vito replied, "But not buddies." I thought it was some reference to Vito being gay. But how was it funny? I didn't understand that at all.

[billymac]

By the way, I didn't get the joke when Tony told Vito that his father and Tony were friends and Vito replied, "But not buddies." I thought it was some reference to Vito being gay. But how was it funny? I didn't understand that at all.


Vito replies: "Butt Buddies?" referring to gay lovers.

[sopranology]

Vito Jr says, "Butt buddies?" which was a homosexual putdown.

Tony renegotiated the deal that by their code he was obliged to make. Marie knew, maybe per Vito, that LCN takes care of the widows and families in case of trouble. When Angie Bonpensiero put the reach out to Tony, she did it through Carmella. Tony visited her, saw her new Cadillac, and found out she had been exaggerating about her hardship. He then smashed her car window and rear tail light(ep 2.7 "Second Opinion") By contrast, I give Marie a lot of credit to pluck up the nerve to talk to Tony directly.

Why Maine? Maybe Vito raved about the Johnny Cakes in New England. Seriously, as we saw, part of "Little V's" problem was he was being tormented by the kids in school due to his family's recent history. This would follow him all through school. The only way to get away from that was to move out of the area where nobody knew the story. $18K may handle part of Vito's problem (I doubt it), but there is also the daughter to think about as well.

[Splishak]

Vito replies: "Butt Buddies?" referring to gay lovers.

Aha! Thanks very much. Good Ear!

[gistenhose]

Marie was worried about her son with his outlandish behavior and was trying to fix the situation, albeit by running away, but nothing about the daughter. Tony was much more sensitive to the little girl's plight. Marie may have gotten further with the relo request if she included her concern for the little girl.

[ballermann]

well, girls dont live in a macho boys world.their world is probably more sensitive(especially at that age) and the girls in her class maybe were showing understanding.

i liked her plan, leaving possible metaphoric or whatever stuff about maine or whatever in that context away, she wanted to move to a mate she had, near the university of maine.a nice approach for giving vito jr. a good chance in life, she probably wanted her children to go to college then there.only thing speaking against it would be that it might have been too late already, vito jr. tasted the fruit and dealt with it his way, getting him back down would be hard...but im sure once in maine he would have been ok.
but generally i think it was a nice idea of marie spatafore to move near a friend who lives near the uni in maine.
and that 100k, jesus...tony seemed to blow that on a daily basis in the episode.but he was that much on a gambling trip ...

[billyp]

i liked her plan, leaving possible metaphoric or whatever stuff about maine or whatever in that context away, she wanted to move to a mate she had, near the university of maine.a nice approach for giving vito jr. a good chance in life, she probably wanted her children to go to college then there.only thing speaking against it would be that it might have been too late already, vito jr. tasted the fruit and dealt with it his way, getting him back down would be hard...but im sure once in maine he would have been ok.
but generally i think it was a nice idea of marie spatafore to move near a friend who lives near the uni in maine.

The whole University in Maine was harken back to the "College" episode, where the rat (I forget his name) moved to Maine near the university, to get away from the mob. His problem caught up with him.

Tony was correct in saying there is no geographical solution to the problem, even if he was trying to sweep it under the rug.

[pitbullluv]

Fabian Petrulio was his name.

[ballermann]

guess it was indeed too late already then (at least in chases view).

[Al Sikeli]

There were a few interesting things in that episode, and the Vito Jr stuff ties into a lot of it. I thought it was interesting that the mother was at her wits end with Vito Jr and her first thought was to run away to northern NE, which is where Vito ran away. VT, NH, ME - kind of the Tri-state area's Shangrila? Her thought was Tony will take care of it. Of course she wants a significant chunk of change to do it, maybe more than you need to get a decent pad in East Nowhere. And Tony of course tries to do anything but pay out - or even get involved. She passes the buck to Tony, he passes the buck again to Phil. They both eventually give variations on the same advice, which is kind of like "knock the sh!t off, kid." Then Tony ponies up with the ultimate solution - pay less money to pass the kid off to strangers out of state. She worries that they will hit Vito Jr, but ultimately goes along. She did not like any of the solutions they offered, preferring perhaps wisely to take the escape plan. But no one escapes that world. They can get rid of people, but no one walks for free.

[hecatae3]

Not to reply to anything previously stated, but as a mother (and a lioness of a mother at that), I have some major problems with Marie's decisionmaking.
In general, good mothers don't:

-Reach out to violent criminals to "fix" a problem child's behaviour.

-Don't even consider therapy (school-appointed social worker aside).

-Allow your son to be kidnapped by strangers in the dead of night and be taken to a discipline camp when he has exhibited a deep need for psychological help.

-Allow said kidnapping to be witnessed by your already deeply traumatized and confused 9-year old daughter, and when she expresses fear and confusion, tell her to go back to bed.


VJ needs to be in intense psychotherapy, on medication, and possibly a couple of weeks in an adolescent unit of a private psych hospital. The act of shitting and stepping in it in front of people is a huge red flag signaling deep, deep mental disturbance. But Marie's answer is to just relocate him, one way or another.

I know it was Tony's idea, the discipline camp; I know he suggested it over other things because it was ultimately cheaper; I know she could have said no. A good mother would have taken the 18K and used it towards inpatient psych treatment for the boy.

That scene when he was taken from his bed totally ripped my heart out. As much or more as Ade's death scene. AHHH! BAD MOMMY!

You can rest assured that fucked-up little VJ will have Mommy AND Daddy issues for the rest of his life. Which will probably not last much longer.

[TonysOriginalNJAccent]

Not to reply to anything previously stated, but as a mother (and a lioness of a mother at that), I have some major problems with Marie's decisionmaking.
In general, good mothers don't:

-Reach out to violent criminals to "fix" a problem child's behaviour.

-Don't even consider therapy (school-appointed social worker aside).

-Allow your son to be kidnapped by strangers in the dead of night and be taken to a discipline camp when he has exhibited a deep need for psychological help.

-Allow said kidnapping to be witnessed by your already deeply traumatized and confused 9-year old daughter, and when she expresses fear and confusion, tell her to go back to bed.


VJ needs to be in intense psychotherapy, on medication, and possibly a couple of weeks in an adolescent unit of a private psych hospital. The act of shitting and stepping in it in front of people is a huge red flag signaling deep, deep mental disturbance. But Marie's answer is to just relocate him, one way or another.

I know it was Tony's idea, the discipline camp; I know he suggested it over other things because it was ultimately cheaper; I know she could have said no. A good mother would have taken the 18K and used it towards inpatient psych treatment for the boy.

That scene when he was taken from his bed totally ripped my heart out. As much or more as Ade's death scene. AHHH! BAD MOMMY!

You can rest assured that fucked-up little VJ will have Mommy AND Daddy issues for the rest of his life. Which will probably not last much longer.

I tend to concur with this outlook, but I probably sympathize with Mrs. Vito more than I should. Her husband was killed, her son is seriously messed up and she doesn't relaly know what to do. Her idea to move to Maine was a patchwork fix at best, it is obvious that she is lost as to what to do. Seeking counsel from Phil and/or Tony wasn't a great idea either, but I really can't blame her given her current situation.

[Splishak]

Hecatae3,

Thanks very much for your post. When I started this thread, I was hoping for some posts from people who have kids (I don't have any).

I thought that Marie's actions were not those of a good mother but I don't blame her in the sense of her being a bad mother. Instead, I think that llike her son, she has been stressed past some kind of breaking point and is making bad decisions - not because she is a bad mom, but because she has been stressed past some breaking point.

Her plan to move to Maine sounded like some kind of fantasy going back in time to her old friend to an old time when things were better for her. It would have removed some of the problems from her family, but only a small fraction. Most of the problems would remain.

I have to agree with Hectae3 insofar as Vito having some extremely serious problems that will require a lot of help - much more than a simple move to Maine can help.

For people with children, this must be a real tragedy. It would seem that life slapped the child with a problem that he can't "fix" on his own, that wasn't his fault and that seems to be beyond any easy solution. This must be the sort of thing that just breaks a parent's heart.

[billyp]

There's nothing Marie can do directly to help Vito Jr. What she needs to do is find him a new male role model.

He seemed to be a good kid before the incident with his dad. Marie seemed to be the image of a good mother from what little we saw. I don't see it as her fault, the condition that Vito Jr. is in.

She is unable to provide what he needs at this point.

His problem lies in his identity. His only male role model, Vito Sr., is now an image of weakness and disgrace, which is an idea that is condoned and even propagated by all current adults in his life other than Marie.

His only window to manhood was shattered. Asking him to step up as man of the household is something he is simply incapable of doing.

No adult males love him as their own. Tony and Phil's half hearted attempts to straighten him out are useless because neither one of them are going to be a stable figure in Vito Jr.'s life. There's no reason for Vito Jr. to listen.

[Splishak]

There is still something nagging me about the scene where Tony calls Marie and tells her about the boot camp.

It seems to me that it was very important in this scene for Marie to appear conflicted - as if she was thinking of saying, "no" - or maybe asking Tony to give her the $18K and letting her arrange something herself - or maybe something else.

She didn't just say, "OK, Tony. Thanks". There was a very, very long pause with a lot of emphasis spent on Marie's face - looking at some of her facial expressions. I don't understand exactly what we were supposed to get out of this scene, but it seems like it was important and that they were trying to project some kind of meaning. Because it was a very unusually long time and we were shown a lot of conflict in Marie's face.

Perhaps it had something to do with Tony's bullshit about how he was moved to tears ... or whatever he said. Marie's bullshit meter probably picked that up fairly easily. But there was something going on in her mind.

I'd really like to know what we were supposed to get out of this scene. Surely it wasn't just "filler". I mean surelyl they didn't have an extra 40 seconds they needed to fill.

Does anyone have any idea what that might have been about?

[TonysOriginalNJAccent]

I'd really like to know what we were supposed to get out of this scene. Surely it wasn't just "filler". I mean surelyl they didn't have an extra 40 seconds they needed to fill.

Does anyone have any idea what that might have been about?

Perhaps it was to highlight the quandry she is in. She had her hopes up to move (for better or worse) and Tony shot that down. She is now left with very few options, and she knows it. I recall seeing a similar look on Eugene's face in Members Only. Utter dissappoint. To be honest, I felt terrible for her right there.

But I'm just a big softie.

[Splishak]

Heh! It was a very powerful emotional episode.

I think that anyone who didn't feel some compassion for Marie must be from some other planet - maybe a space alien.