Episode 6.16: Chasing It - Grades and General Review

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Please post all grades, reviews, and general or abbreviated comments about the episode in this thread. Use individual threads for longer or more substantive thoughts/discussion points.

[BennyBlanco]

Vito Jr's gonna whack tony




j/k

[Splishak]

Wow! What an episode. My emotional self feels like somebody gave me a body blow with a sledgehammer. Just about every second was just riveting with top-notch entertainment.

But there was one small segment I didn't like. It was about Nancy Sinatra.

I have a list of evil nasty things that I want to say about her, but I know that would go against the spirit of this forum.

So I'll just say that in my opinion, this was one of the most powerful episodes I've ever seen with the single exception being the participation of Nancy Sinatra.

[Sharpie]

A down-right chilly episode. Never before have I seen the show mirror a shakesperean drama more than now. The series will end with the sacrifice of either Carmella, Meadow, or A.J., there is no way it can not. No movies, no prequels, no sequels.

[Garth]

Wow, amazing, if you ask me. The balance between all the plots were awesome. Felt like a classic Sopranos episode, yet also felt the "impending doom" tone that this season has carried so well. The scene between Carm & Tony...explosive to say the least! And next week's episode looks like another winner. My one complaint is the end of the episode seemed a bit too rushed. But other then that, no complaints. Oh, and if the whole Vito fiasco from the first 12 episodes of season 6 are the impetus to widen the gap between Tony & Phil, like it is mentioned in this episode, that is a price I am happy to pay!

[cob]

I dont see how they can go from those first 3 episodes this run, which were among the best episodes Ive ever seen, to this, which I can honestly say is the worst.

Tony gambling problem had predictable moments, his few angry outbursts felt very fake and forced, and that fight with carmela might have been more dramatic if the rest of the episode wasnt so ridiculous.

EDIT: AJ's storyline also felt tacked on, but Ill see how that plays out.

[stulongisland]

When Hesh's woman died (killed?), I felt as if someone killed her to shut her up and wait in the closet for Hesh to come up so they can kill him in his bed room. Prior to that, I thought Bobby and Tony were going to take him out for a whacking. I also feared somewhere along the way would be a driveby shooting., for somereason.

[Cassata]

I might have to view this several times to find a deeper meaning. However, I was utterly bored. I didn't need an hour to see Tony having a gambling problem. I knew that last week when he asked Hesh for 200k.

[FBI agent]

eh.
For the first time in the history of the series I felt something was short-shifted and poorly done. What?
The sports stuff.
It was hokey, it was not real-life, it was contrived and forced.
Some examples:
The whole double fumble run into the end zone thing when Buffalo won as the guys were all watching TV. It was just too obvious (and, I think, there's a rule about who can advance a fumble in the final two minutes of game, but I digress).
Then the whole friend-of-a-friend in San Diego who knows about a fracture in the QB leg? That's made-for-TV movie bullshit. It doesn't happen.
Then Tony, a huge gambler, doesn't know about the result of the Jets game until the next morning in the paper? No ESPN? No text message of scores on his phone? No checking the score on the Internet? That was really sophomoric writing and led into what could have been a great scene with the fight with Carm and the whole time I'm thinking "No gambler is ever surprised when they open they paper the next day."
Man. I'm so disappointed.

[Splishak]

I'm sure that I could write a lot about so many things in this episode. But for now I'd just like to say something about AJ's girlfriend, Blanca. I think I understand her a lot better now. Especially after Meadow talks about Carmella's cousin needing a mansion now that they have a baby on the way.

I guess Blanca always figured that if nothing else, becoming his gf would mean there would be something good in store for herself and her child. But imagine yourself in her shoes and month after month, there is nothing for her or her son while there are such unimaginable rewards for people that don't even seem to be liked by AJs family - never mind being related to them.

It's a wonderful way to know what people think of you (or how little they do thing about you) when the things that they say just rip you apart and they didn't even care enough to think how their words would make you feel. I'm sure Meadow didn't intend to harm Blanc, but if she had just taken two seconds to think how Blanca would feel when she said that Carm's cousins needed that mansion cuz they had a baby on the way - all the while Blanca and her son live in a terrible little apartment ... it seems obvious that Meadow just doesnt consider Blanca to be of any value or importance to her family whatsoever.

I guess it just got too much for her to take. Seeing the contrast between AJs parents and all their associates on the one hand, and AJ the scared little baby (remember him crying out to Carmella when the bear came to say hello? "MOMMEE! HELP ME! MOMMEE!). Yes, AJ is just a scared little baby and Blanca must have decided that she must have been crazy to ever hope for anything good from him.

I must say that she had a very grown up way of breaking things off. Both men and women everywhere should pay close attention. Just put your ex's stuff in a bag, hand them the bag and drive off. No muss, no fuss and no wasted tears. Goodbye little AJ. Adios Muchachos!

[Splishak]

I dont see how they can go from those first 3 episodes this run, which were among the best episodes Ive ever seen, to this, which I can honestly say is the worst.

All I can say is that so many people here seem to have such amazingly different opinions from week to week as to which episodes are great and which are terrible. I can't understand how so many people think one episode is out of this world while others are just awful.

I certainly respect everyone's right to think any show is a zero while any other show is a ten. I'm just glad when people explain why they hold these opinions so I can get a chance to review things in my own mind and see if I must have missed something.

So many times, I have come to this forum thinking that a particular episode was either a ten or a zero or a one and my jaw would hit the floor when I read post after post from people who felt the opposite way.

I just want to say this place is so amazing in that you just almost never see any persona attacks of one person calling another an idiot because they disagreed.

I hold Fly largely responsible for that and again - just want to say, Thank you Fly.

[mrcinsc]

Wow, what a waste of an entire hour of my life, that might have been the worst episode ever, I think Vito Jr. said enough for me when he took a shit on the floor.....Wow I am still in shock....Chase needs to lay of Uncle Jun's medicines....

[cob]

I just want to say this place is so amazing in that you just almost never see any persona attacks of one person calling another an idiot because they disagreed.


One of the reasons I decided to sign up. Ive been lurking for a while around here. You are all pretty laid-back when it comes to disagreements.

While trying to keep the episode bashing to a minimum, Ill say that whenever Tony and Phil were talking near the beginning, I thought it was a dream. It just didnt flow and felt unnatural.

its also amazing that this same write was responsible for The Test Dream, which is one of my favorite episodes.

[bloodshot]

was it my imagination or did Southside Johnny get a credit as "Himself" for the 2 sec out of focus shot playing harmonica behind Nancy Sinatra? i guess it's who you know

[BarRoma]

I'll didn't like this episode at all. I'll go as far as saying it was the worst of any season. Where is Tony's compulsive gambling coming from? Seems to me it was just thrown in to make a story.

[pitbullluv]

I too wasn't thrilled about this episode. The friction between Hesh and Tony is something we haven't seen in past episodes so that was a little interesting. I agree with the other members that stated the episode dealing with the gambling scenes was forced.

I don't know if Tony killed the girlfriend or not? The smug look on Tony's face tells me he did. I find it hypocritical of Tony to badmouth Hesh about paying him his money back. What would Tony do in that situation if someone owed him 200k? He knew he could fuck Hesh around because there wasn't a damn thing Hesh could do about it.

[Garth]

Wow, well obviously you I respect all of your opinions, no matter how different they are from my own. But I thought this episode was great. I don't know, maybe upon another viewing my mind will completely change. But I thought it showed some great moments and threw Tony into a completely new position with the gambling angle. I would say classifying him as an addict is going a bit far, when really he is just finding excitement through it. Yes he did fight with Carm about the issue, and if he continues I can see where it will become a problem. But the worst episode of any season? I am just astonished how I can think it is a great episode and many of you feel like it was a complete waste of an hour. Oh well! I will be interested to read all of your thoughts over the next week!

[blenni]

I dont' recall Tony ever having a gabling problem until now. It seemed to be artificial.

[cob]

I too wasn't thrilled about this episode. The friction between Hesh and Tony is something we haven't seen in past episodes so that was a little interesting. I agree with the other members that stated the episode dealing with the gambling scenes was forced.

I don't know if Tony killed the girlfriend or not? The smug look on Tony's face tells me he did. I find it hypocritical of Tony to badmouth Hesh about paying him his money back. What would Tony do in that situation if someone owed him 200k? He knew he could fuck Hesh around because there wasn't a damn thing Hesh could do about it.


I kind of thought that Hesh's girlfriend just died, and that part with Tony giving Hesh the money afterwards was just showing that Tony didnt have emotion and was just about money anymore.

[billyp]

Notice how this episode was shot almost entirely hand-held, or with a loose camera head. The sense of unease was surely amplified by this.

The dutch angle of the bathroom door-frame was powerful, when Tony was trying to talk to Carmella who was in the bathroom.

The resolution with Hesch at the end, showed Tony coming out of Hesch's house on a static camera shot. This showed me that Tony had finally set something right, and the unease was gone.

Now the only question is, what assets did he liquify, or who did he steal from to get that money?

[haironmelfistwat]

The friction between Hesh and Tony is something we haven't seen in past episodes so that was a little interesting.

I thought the mutual hatred of Tony and Hesh for each other seemed way out of character for the friendship they've had throughout the whole series. It seems like it was cooked up to add something to the plot and didn't seem plausible to me.

I also think Blanca dropped AJ because she viewed him as just another little boy to take care of. It could be that she was disappointed when AJ talked about moving up to day manager at the restaurant. After all, managing a pizza parlor is no way to get a huge house like the ones she's seen at the Sopranos.

Finally, I, too, was a bit disappointed at the episode. The gambling, Hesh, Blanca, Vito's kid... everything seemed over the top and forced. I think the shit on the bathroom floor was a metaphor for this episode... Hopefully next week will be better.

[Rike]

Loved this episode! 10/10

The scenes with carm and tony were the best!

[Micu407]

I dont see how they can go from those first 3 episodes this run, which were among the best episodes Ive ever seen, to this, which I can honestly say is the worst.

Tony gambling problem had predictable moments, his few angry outbursts felt very fake and forced, and that fight with carmela might have been more dramatic if the rest of the episode wasnt so ridiculous.

EDIT: AJ's storyline also felt tacked on, but Ill see how that plays out.


I couldn't have said it better my self, that's exactly how I felt. Although, I thought the first & 3rd episode's were just OK. Cleaver was the only real good one so far, for me.

It feels like they are just going through the motions to get to the end. There is really not much substance to most of them so far this year.

[chrisishot1]

Well, I can see I'm not as passionate about this episode one way or the other as some of you are. I felt rather indifferent, except that I was expecting Tony to whack Hesh rather than pay him the money. I don't know much about sports so the gambling didn't seem that fake to me (except for the inside knowledge - nothing stays a secret in this instant-message 24-hour media circus we live in).

What really did surprise me was T's lack of empathy and concern for Vito, Jr. Tony always had a soft spot for children and animals, and I don't believe he would see a child in that much pain and not do something about it. This money crisis is what will bring him down, either dead or flipping to get out of the whole mess. He just can't take it any more. Makes for very tense episodes because you can't tell from one moment to the next if the last straw will be broken.

[billyp]

Do you think those were really camp counsilors coming for Vito Jr. One of them looked a little familiar!?:icon_rolleyes:

[pitbullluv]

Right! I got a sinking feeling when I saw the "counselors" taking Vito Jr. away. Something didn't seem quite right with that.

I believe if Tony had the money to give to Marie, he would have given it to her without a second thought.

The scene were Vito Jr. took a dump in the shower, reminded me of the scene when Tony told Dr. Melfi being in therapy is "like taking a shit".

[chrisishot1]

Now the only question is, what assets did he liquify, or who did he steal from to get that money?

I think he finally convinced Carmela to lend him the money. By the way, their scene together was another painful one to watch. How Edie does not win every year is beyond me. Their scenes together are a beautifully executed dance.

[sopranology]

Carlo compares the Hesh situation to an episode of the "Twilight Zone" about a small time gangster named Eddie Valentine. Actually, it was Henry "Rocky" Valentine in a classic episode called "A Nice Place to Visit." Valentine gets shot and killed by the police during a robbery. He wakes up in a place where he gets everything he wishes, every bet he places he wins, and it's never enough, he's never satisfied. Valentine's living in a hell he made for himself.

Sound familiar?:wink:

[Universal Polymath]

Tony's gambling problem did seem a bit artificial. All week, I've heard people talking about being afraid that the gambling story would seem tacked on and out of no where (cause let's face it, everyone knew what this episode was going to be about based on the preview last week). And all week, I've been defending the show, saying that we have to take into account how much time has past between 6a and 6b, and that Tony could have developed this problem during that gap. The problem is, though, Tony didn’t just make one or two bets in this episode, he spent the entire hour making them. One phone call in the previous episode just wasn’t enough of a setup for an entire episode of gambling. So I think the idea itself could have worked, but it wasn’t executed so well – a little over the top.

Then the whole friend-of-a-friend in San Diego who knows about a fracture in the QB leg? That's made-for-TV movie bullshit. It doesn't happen.

Couldn’t agree more, FBIAgent. I felt the same way about some of the dialogue in “Stage 5”, and it’s an odd feeling because I’ve never, ever had a problem fully buying into the dialogue and story for six entire seasons – and now, some of it feels a lot less like “The Sopranos” (which I view as some sort of alternate reality), and a lot more like conventional television.

Having gotten that complaint out of the way, I did enjoy much of the episode. Taken in the context of the series, the gambling storyline was a little hard to accept, but as a stand-alone hour of television, I really enjoyed it. The tension and feeling of dread that has accompanied every second of this season is still as present as ever. When Tony left Hesh’s the first time, and Hesh retired to his bedroom to complain about Tony, that was a really interesting scene to me. Never before have we seen Tony or Hesh have any noticeable problem with each other, so that initial hint of conflict was a slight shock to me. Elsewhere, it’s been mentioned that Tony and Hesh’s problem with each other seemed out of character, but I disagree. I think it’s just that this time, the audience was privy to more information. We’ve never gotten to see Hesh’s reaction to Tony after Tony leaves before, so it’s very possible that Hesh’s apparent admiration for Tony has been forced for years simply because he’s the boss. Besides, as contrived as it sounds, it’s true enough that money can quickly create conflicts like that between good friends.

When Tony and Bobby came over uninvited to take Hesh out, I immediately thought we were going to get another high-tension scene much like the one on the boat with Paulie last week (I was kind of relieved when it didn’t come to that – those scenes just make me too anxious).

All the scenes between Tony and Carmella were incredibly powerful. The fight scene was just so hard to swallow, especially after Tony had shown so much pride in her job well done just a few scenes earlier. Gandolfini and Falco are just amazing together, and there’s no reason why Gandolfini shouldn’t win the Emmy for his ever-amazing performance (for which, by the way, he plans on submitting this episode).

[Universal Polymath]

Well, I'll go first this time. I went with 7, because I thought it was a pretty decent episode, but not quite as strong as last week (an 8), or any episode this season, so far. Still though, it was right there - great acting, tense as hell, and it was great to see Hesh again.

Still though, how people could already call "Best ever" or "Worst ever" is way beyond me - I thought it was a fine episode, neither the best nor the worst this series has to offer.

[HagensBing1977]

The first scene w/ Hesh- Tony said that he enjoyed his time with Hesh and alluded to the fact that the rest of Tony's crew were just a bunch of murderers. He lumped Bobby in with the likes of Paulie and Chris, and it seemed like Bobby's hit in the first episode put him in with this group. The isolation of Tony continues.

[billyp]

The scene were Vito Jr. took a dump in the shower, reminded me of the scene when Tony told Dr. Melfi being in therapy is "like taking a shit".

A lot of scatological references lately.

In the nursing home you can overhear someone saying either, "I sh*t myself" or "He sh*t himself".

When Tony was arrested, the guy in the background at the toilet.

In season 6A Phil, before his heart attack said "I gotta take a sh*t".

Tony's metaphor for therapy

Vito Jr. in this episode.

I'm sure there's more, but I'm getting sick to my stomach.

[Rike]

We also keep seeing Tony burn more bridges. Chrissy, Bobby, his thing with Paulie, and now Hesh. I see him finding himself all alone very soon...

[JawsOfJosh]

It's hard for me to evaluate good or bad since these are the very last episodes. I'm savoring every moment while I can.

The season opener was slow for sure, but I think it was a way to show how Tony has slowed down since the shooting. The gambling problem makes sense if you take this as a sign of Tony coming apart. Tony has other avenues to score big, but it seems like less work to gamble than to go out and steal as they do (and betting on 23 twice? Gimme a break.) His weight has increased even more, his voice is more gravelly, his attendance in therapy is sporadic. The man is tired. Not until the third episode do we see a visit with Melfi, because there's no more pockets of his mind left to explore.

How can Tony suggest Carm spend her spec house profits on gambling! Is he that dumb with money? No. He must be feeling desperate. As much as I detest Carm's materialism, her reaction was justified.

The Vito Jr. storyline felt tacked on. We already went through this with A.J. and even a bit with Meadow (slumming around and bitchy after Jackie Jr.'s death), I don't know why they put this in. Perhaps how Tony financed Vito Jr.'s "escape" prompts trouble with Phil. Who knows. Every episode of this season seems independent of itself. There seems to be no real thread running through the season as they do so often -- except for Tony's obvious decline in spirit. Sure, it's easy to hope for a big war between Jersey and New York, especially with a clear-eyed hothead like Phil at the head. I guess that's selfish, I want to see them go out in a ball of explosion.

Never saw static between Tony and Hesh before. Never saw either one of them badmouth each other in private, either. That was new and interesting. Something is definitely rotten in Denmark if Tony's giving Hesh shit. Tony would consider it un-Boss-like to pay Hesh his vig in front of his own crew as he did at Satriale's. Bad move, even though nobody else took notice. How Tony just left Hesh there alone in his home after dropping off the money and knowing about Renata's death was heartless. This is what made Tony so interesting over the years; extreme brutality occasionally alternating with charisma and tenderness. We see Tony lean over and kiss the back of Hesh's neck, but he doesn't sit down to console him. He just leaves. Tony's lost something.

I still have a mad chocolate craving that Valery made it out of the Pine Barrens and it prompts the Russians to slaughter the Soprano crew. The reference by Tony about visiting Slava again for money washing re-fueled my thirst.

I'd have to wait until the series ends to see how Chase wraps this all up. The season has been compellingly watchable as usual, but now what I expected. Then again, that's what's attracted me to the series all these years.

[tangled]

Thanks for pointing out that it's the camera work that's responsible for alot of the uneasey feeling throughout.
i've felt so 'off' and a little lost through all of these past weeks episodes. Not lost as in i don't know what's going on, but more in a out of control way.
They've all been very tense and uncomfortable, in my opinion. i don't know how much of that is my own dread about the end or how much of it is intentional - or, like someone pointed out, haphazardly forced. (don't stone me!!)

The finding out the score the next day part was completely unrealistic. i was married to a pretty heavy gambler and waiting until the next day for a score isn't really what they do. But the anger and the blaming everyone and everything for not betting more on it was right on.

On a personal level, the spiraling of Tony's gambling was really tense because there's almost no chance of anything good coming out of that sort of indulgence.
They all seemed to be 'bad beats', in that they were so close, so nearly a sure thing and then just...poof. (Except for the last one - Dolphins/Eagles)
i need to see it again.

[billymac]

I understand those who were disappointed with the episode. The focus was on a but a few story-lines, seemingly not very important to propelling us to a conclusion. But I felt it was an important episode because it advanced Tony’s journey of self-discovery via the gambling-loss induced strains on his relationships with Hesh and Carmella.

Tony’s gambling and chasing the losses, to re-pay Hesh and to help the Spatafores escape their continuing troubles and shame, is not successful . His crew is under-producing. The strain of the financial responsibility leads Tony to fleetingly consider whacking Hesh; it also leads him to demand that Carm give him a taste of her spec-house proceeds.

Each relationship strains terribly until Tony realizes that if he has to use his own money to re-pay Hesh or to help Vito, Jr., it’s still only money, which is not as important as preserving the love of family and close friends. He candidly tells Carm that just being alive means that he is “up”. Consequently, some of the Mob Boss baggage that has been preventing Tony from achieving a true moment of clarity about his life and his future is slowly being stripped away.

The episode also reinforced an important theme that is invisibly swirling around Tony and which is subconsciously shaping his ultimate demise or redemption: the theme of the “innocents”.

Tony has always exhibited genuine heartache for the innocent child subjected to terrible circumstances such as the little burned girl who was brought to the hospital when Tony was recovering from his gunshot or the innocent children with leukemia he mentioned last week. But, this week, when Tony had the chance to actually do something to help Marie Spatafore and her innocent children, he first declares that it is not his problem and shift the responsibility for helping them to Phil. When Phil will not take the responsibility, Tony reluctantly agrees to fund the half-measure of sending Vito Jr. to a tough-love camp.

Tony also uses the image of the innocent to viciously hurt Carmella by telling her that her substandard spec-house would collapse and kill cousin Brian’s unborn child. This is similar to the manner in which Livia used to assault Tony’s soul by constantly talking about mothers killing their innocent children.

This image of damage to innocent children haunts Tony to this day. Event he FBI has used the image to their advantage with Tony. Agent Harris’ partner has planted the seed that Tony’s innocent daughter Meadow is subject to possible danger from terrorism as a frequent user of the tunnels into NYC. Don’t discount the fact that Tony was thinking about this when he passed the Arabs gathering at their clubhouse.

The loss of innocence is also reflected in Bobby’s lost joy. Tony’s order that Bobby kill the Canadian has noticeably muted Bobby’s previously happy-go-lucky demeanor. Whether he recognizes it yet or not, Tony’s actions have direct impact on the innocents and the loss of innocence. And his future actions with regard to his continued criminal life is being forcibly channeled into ever-more narrow pathways by these same themes. How he decides to reconcile his life with the knowledge of his complicity with harming the innocents and inflicting the loss of innocence on others is a decision he will soon have to make. He will not be able to take a half-measure like he did tonight with Vito, Jr.

[aprilemoney]

Just a quick thought


Tony was lying to Carmela about the "THE GUY FROM SAN-DIEGO.." comment. He just wanted to get the money..and saying that mIGHT sway her opinion..she didn't believe him either.

So i didnt view that quote..forced or to fake...IT WAS A LIE.

[billyp]

This image of damage to innocent children haunts Tony to this day. Event he FBI has used the image to their advantage with Tony. Agent Harris’ partner has planted the seed that Tony’s innocent daughter Meadow is subject to possible danger from terrorism as a frequent user of the tunnels into NYC. Don’t discount the fact that Tony was thinking about this when he passed the Arabs gathering at their clubhouse.


I think alot of this stems from the Bellevacua murder in season 2.

The scene at the amusement park when the kid yells "mommy" and Tony is obviously troubled, is a demon that is probably haunting him 'til this day.

[ChristophersRelapse]

I guess I'll go with a 7, but maybe a 6.5... I felt like the gambling angle was just a little too overplayed, and Tony just came off as a little ridiculous. What the f happened to Hesh's lady?

[Rike]

Thanks for pointing out that it's the camera work that's responsible for alot of the uneasey feeling throughout.
i've felt so 'off' and a little lost through all of these past weeks episodes. Not lost as in i don't know what's going on, but more in a out of control way.
They've all been very tense and uncomfortable, in my opinion. i don't know how much of that is my own dread about the end or how much of it is intentional - or, like someone pointed out, haphazardly forced. (don't stone me!!)

The finding out the score the next day part was completely unrealistic. i was married to a pretty heavy gambler and waiting until the next day for a score isn't really what they do. But the anger and the blaming everyone and everything for not betting more on it was right on.

On a personal level, the spiraling of Tony's gambling was really tense because there's almost no chance of anything good coming out of that sort of indulgence.
They all seemed to be 'bad beats', in that they were so close, so nearly a sure thing and then just...poof. (Except for the last one - Dolphins/Eagles)
i need to see it again.

Complaining about Tony "finding out the score the next day" seems very nit picky to me. He could very easily have found that out the second it happened and the newspaper only reminded him of it. I'm kind of baffled by how many people are going so far to bash this episode :icon_frown:

[billyp]

Just a quick thought


Tony was lying to Carmela about the "THE GUY FROM SAN-DIEGO.." comment. He just wanted to get the money..and saying that mIGHT sway her opinion..she didn't believe him either.

So i didnt view that quote..forced or to fake...IT WAS A LIE.

I don't think it was a lie. He seemed to have his own valid reasons for each bet. The horse had "Meadow" in its name. One team had a kicker out right out of college. etc.

[Guyfromtrah]

I didn't see the gambling theme as contrived like so many other people have said. Tony has gambled throughout the show. It has never been the focus of an episode like it was tonight, but it has always been in the background. A huge part of his income is from illeagal gambling, so it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to show that Tony gambles a lot himself. He's also shown kind of obsessive behavior about different things throughout the show. He gets really into things for a time and then looses interest. A couple examples would be his enthusiasm for the wine he and Christopher stole, going to that Sushi restaurant over and over, etc. There have been more examples, but they escape me at the moment. Also, the hurt quaterback inside information would be the kind of thing gamblers would rely on all the time, rumor. I don't think the point was to show that Tony actually had inside information, it is a characteristic that a lot of heavy gamblers would have.

I doubt that these two things are likely, but did Tony have any hand in Hesh's girlfriend's death? And, did Tony possibly turn in those Arabs for a reward? Unlikely on both, but the possibility was left open, especially in Tony's seemingly insincere consolation of Hesh.

[tangled]

Bashing this episode was never my intention. Neither was nitpicking. i actually wouldn't have thought to mention it had someone else not posted it and i simply agreed that yes, it did seem odd.

Apologies.

[fugazzi]

This episode confirms it for me, Phil Letardo is gay. He claimed Vito disgraced his family, and now he refers to Vito's wife as a mere distant cousin, so it wasn't about honor. As shakesphere said "I think thee protest too much" Phill killed Vito out of his own self hate.
Other things that make me think this are; Phill literally walked out of the closet at the motel Vito was hiding out at in the scene where Vito is whacked. Also when Tony is talking to Dr Melfi about Vito and Homosexual activity in prison Tony says you get a pass for that. When you put that together with the frequent references to Phill having served 20 years inside. Not too mention the scene where Phill and his wife are consoleing Vito's wife and a bodybuilding competition comes on the tv and Phill yells shut that off. Perhaps I am reading into this too much, but it was the scene where Phill walked out of the motel closet that got me putting the rest together.

[billyp]

I didn't see the gambling theme as contrived like so many other people have said. Tony has gambled throughout the show. It has never been the focus of an episode like it was tonight, but it has always been in the background.

I think Tony explained it when he said Vito earned 3 times as much as Carlo. Vito was in fact, supporting Tony's gambling all along, and now that he's lost that vein, the problem has risen to the surface.

[SalmonSushi]

I too thought the episode was good, but not great.

I'm glad someone mentioned the use of the hand-held camera in this ep, as it certainly contributed to the feeling of unease throughout. I also think this season's lack of colour has played a major role in producing this feeling of dread. Watching seasons 1 and 2 over the past couple weeks has made me very aware of how the colours this season appear to be bleached/faded out.

I'm anxiously awaiting further input from the "the Arabs at the Crazy Horse will lead to Tony's downfall!" faction, as it appears more and more that this storyline will play a large role as the series comes to an end.

[Pork Store]

I didn't see the gambling theme as contrived like so many other people have said. Tony has gambled throughout the show. It has never been the focus of an episode like it was tonight, but it has always been in the background....

Agreed. At first it was to escape his problems and then he started "Chasing it" when his losses compounded them. Remember Tony can be as self-destructive as anyone. He also has the responsibilities of owing money to Hesh and helping out Little Vito. These are two heavy burdens that come at a time where Tony is in a psychological funk. The lure of an easy fix doesn't seem that far fetched to me. Hesh is probable Tony's best father figure. Owing him money has to way heavy on him, even if he want admit it or is blind of it. The situation with Little Vito is equally challenging, as Tony is not in a position to help the Spatafores the way a Boss should.

[focker]

There's 5 episodes left, what the hell is going on? I gave it a three. Both, last week and this week's episodes were pointless. I understand that Tony is self destructing along with a few others, but man.. it's like watching a soap opera.

[tomahawk]

As per usual - great post Billymac. The concept of the "innocents" was very strong, especially when contrasted with Tony's description of his crew as "a bunch of murderers".

I thought the other concept that was in the forefront was that of "fatherhood". Hesh has been a father like figure to Tony, yet Tony's vice drove a wedge between them to the point that Tony actually considered whacking Hesh. Both Tony and Phil try to act as surrogate father to Vito Jr., but both of their "old-school" approaches fail miserably. AJ's career failure is what turned Blanca off to the point that she broke off their brief engagement. Guess who he will go running to next week for some consolation? Will Tony do any better counseling his own son than Vito's? I doubt it.

I agree with people who posted last week that Tony's gambling is a way of rebelling against Johnny Soprano who told him never to gamble and showed him the repercussions of losing to that addiction. How many people have Tony and company beat up over gambling debts in the history of the series?

Tony's depression is continuing and it won't be long before he decompresses. Who does he trust? He has been fighting with Carm and his business friends all can't be trusted. This next week AJ will show his weakness. Even Melfi is standing up to him, demanding that he keep his appointments. Tony doesn't even have a regular goomar to vent with. He turns all of this inside on himself.

While this wasn't the best episode, it was not the worst. What got me was the lack of humor in this week's episode. Usually there are 3 or 4 very funny lines, but this week was pretty serious. That had to be intentional.

For all the people criticizing the gambling as being phony, I disagree, Gamblers ALWAYS think they know more than everyone and thats why they bet on certain games. For every time the "inside information" appears to be correct, there is a time when the info. has no bearing at all. Like the previous poster said, Tony isn't just getting the news in the paper. The paper is just rubbing it in telling him "you were right, but failed to get your bet down". That helped set him off. I did think letting it ride on the Roulette was a strange thing that no one with an ounce of sense would do.

[jouster]

This might very well be Tony at his worst. Incredibly cruel, irresponsible with his money, petty, rage out of control. A line from AJ to Tony in "Members Only" came to mind: "You have such a low opinion of people," and that goes especially for people Tony owes something to. I'm very curious to see how this spiral continues (which I have no doubt it will).

The Vito Jr subplot I thought was one of the best, for a few reasons (although I could have done without that closeup in the shower). Firstly because it shows repercussions from the Vito storyline earlier in the season, which had previously been unsatisfactory to me in the amount of screen time devoted to it versus the impact on the overall story, and Tony specifically. Secondly, it was a sideplot that very much affected Tony - he struggled with the decision, it added to the main plot of Tony's money woes and it served as yet another point of contention between him and Phil.

[Universal Polymath]

I immediately noticed the handheld quality of the filming. Was that technique used only at the begininng of the episode, or was it there through the whole thing, and I just remember it specifically from the begininng because of how initially odd it felt? I'm going to have to go back and watch again ...

Also, did anyone notice that this episode was a bit short? Barely forty-nine minutes, I believe. I always tend to watch the clock as I watch this show (and constantly do the countdown: "Halfway through ..." "Twenty minutes left ..." "Ten minutes left ..." etc.), and was anticipating at least one more scene after Tony leaves Hesh's house. I was kind of taken back when the credits started rolling and I realized that was it.

[sopranology]

Fitting choice for the song at the end credits

Willie Dixon - "Going Down Slow”

Man, you know I done enjoyed things that kings and queens will never have. In fact, kings and queens can never get. And they don't even know about. And good times, mmmmm-hmmmm.

I have had my fun, if I never get well no more.
I have had my fun, if I never get well no more.
All my health is failin on me, oh yes, I'm goin down slow.

Now looka here, I did not say I was a millionaire. But, I said I have spent more money than a millionaire. Cause if I had a kept all the money that I already spent, I woulda been a millionaire a long time ago. And women, great drooblin moobilie.

Please, write my mama, tell her the shape I'm in.
Please, write my old mother, tell her the shape I'm in.
Tell her to pray for me, forgive me for my sin.

[HagensBing1977]

I still have a mad chocolate craving that Valery made it out of the Pine Barrens and it prompts the Russians to slaughter the Soprano crew. The reference by Tony about visiting Slava again for money washing re-fueled my thirst.



No kidding! The Slava reference was stated somewhat casually. Why oh why do they like messing with our heads like this? If they are going to do this to us, can't I inquire about if Slava has seen or mentioned his best friend, the tragic figure of Valery, to Tony sometime during their business dealings.

[billyp]

I immediately noticed the handheld quality of the filming. Was that technique used only at the begininng of the episode, or was it there through the whole thing, and I just remember it specifically from the begininng because of how initially odd it felt? I'm going to have to go back and watch again ...

It was shot hand-held or shot with a loose camera head throughout. (except for)...

I noticed the camera was static in Melphi's office, (maybe symbolic of mental stability.)

It was static for the car shots. (but that's because the cameras are mounted).

And it ends on static shots with Tony at Hesch's house, (like I said before, maybe because Tony was settled up).

[sopranology]

The Slava reference is Chase's way of saying, "the Russian is never coming back," because if he had, there goes all of Tony's off-shore money.

What was Tony's biggest bet lost? He took Philly over Miami. The result is he had less to give to Marie Spatafore. The reason he's holding the bag in the first place, supporting her, is because he lost over another Philly (Leotardo). Another possible interpretation, T didn't go with retirement to Florida like Carmine Jr, and passes on Miami like Beansie, instead he goes with Philly, the mob life, and loses.

[AJColossal]

Episodes like "Chasing It" are in my opinion part of what make The Sopranos a work of art. I'm not saying "Chasing It" was the best episode, or maybe even a great one per se, but it was confounding, challenging and it made you think about it's relevance. The fact that we have such wildly different takes on it's merits show that each episode is this bizarre trove of riches that mean different things to different people. This is what makes this show a one-of-a-kind experince to me.

So Tony has developed a gambling problem fairly suddenly over the last few episodes. What does that mean? Is it a search for excitement? Is it self-destruction for the sake of self-destruction? Is it just a distraction from the horrible life that he's made for himself? I do think this is part of his spiral downward. And like others have mentioned, there doesn't seem to be much concern about who he takes with him.

I frickin' love the fact that we don't know if Tony had anything to do with Hesh's girlfriend's death. Some say yes, some say no, and some are just frustrated we don't know. That's The Sopranos in a nutshell for me, I frickin' love it, and I'm always taken with the different ways this show amazes me.

[billyp]

I frickin' love the fact that we don't know if Tony had anything to do with Hesh's girlfriend's death. Some say yes, some say no, and some are just frustrated we don't know. That's The Sopranos in a nutshell for me, I frickin' love it, and I'm always taken with the different ways this show amazes me.

I think its a stretch to think Tony had anything to do with her death.

I think the question imposed by this is whether Tony payed him back out of sympathy.

Would he have payed Hesch back so soon if she didn't die?

[jouster]

Good question, billyp. I say he would have paid him back, but perhaps not so soon. I think the main impetus for paying back the money when he did is because Tony has real trouble both relating to and dealing with sorrow. Paying back the money was Tony's way of doing the right thing by Hesh and putting the hurt between them away, in my opinion. I do think that Hesh would've been paid back eventually regardless, based on Tony's line about the boss of a family not owning up to his debts being poor conduct.

[Pork Store]

I'm not sure about Rennata's death. On one hand, I can't see how Tony would or could pull this off without major reprecusions with the law and himself. On the other, people her age usually don't die in their sleep. It was a tad strange.

The only clue I can think of that might lead us to believe he had anything to do with it is Carlo. We never get any explanation as to why he stops by the pork store and has an exchange with him. I'm referring to the scene right before he and his driver see the arabs. I'm guessing it was just a pick up?

[patriquem]

I'm not sure about Rennata's death. On one hand, I can't see how Tony would or could pull this off without major reprecusions with the law and himself. On the other, people her age usually don't die in their sleep. It was a tad strange.

The only clue I can think of that might lead us to believe he had anything to do with it is Carlo. We never get any explanation as to why he stops by the pork store and has an exchange with him. I'm referring to the scene right before he and his driver see the arabs. I'm guessing it was just a pick up?

That scene with Carlo and friend in front of the pork store seemed shot to look like it was surveillance footage: darting camera, inability to hear what's being said, etc. I don't think that that scene had anything to do with Renata's death (which, I think, is just one of those things, put in place to allow the final scene with Tony and Hesh), but a subtle reminder that Tony will still have to deal with problems of a different sort - the FBI.

[billyp]

It almost sounds like he says "Make sure it gets done". (Tony to Carlo)

Who knows:icon_question:

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Lots of good observations by everyone.

I can understand the disparate reactions to the ep. I, too, have been a little troubled by the seeming "out of the blue" nature of Tony's gambling, particularly in the amounts and with the kind of recklessness he's displaying the last couple of episodes. But it's not much more of a shock than his cocaine use in season 5 (alluded to in season 4's "Whoever Did This") or the sudden importance to him of a cousin that had never even been mentioned in 4 previous seasons. We have to keep in mind what Chase himself has said in interviews, that we are privy to only a small percentage of these characters' lives, 8 years distilled into 80 some hours. There are still undoubtedly some important things about Tony that have yet to be explored and still others that will never see the light of day.

That said, it's also quite obvious that the present level of gambling is a departure for Tony, enough that colleagues are raising eyebrows and Tony is talking to his shrink about it and having to borrow money to sustain himself. We are seeing it really for the first time because it is now only a problem for the first time.

As for Renata's death, there's not a chance Tony had anything to do with that, IMO. That scene followed Tony's revival of his "everyday is a gift" philosophy during the talk on the bed with his wife, where he reminded her that having survived a serious gunshot, he is already "way up" and that no mere gambling losses could alter that string of much more important luck. After assuring her (with seeming earnestness and credibility) that he has already provided for her future without him, he uses offshore monies to pay off Hesh and salvage their friendship (a decision made BEFORE Renata died) and brings it with him when he goes to express his condolences to Hesh. His sorrow for Hesh seemed genuine, as he does like the guy.

But I think the whole point of that scene was to illustrate that what Tony said to Carmela is precisely true. Tony IS "way up" in the luck of life considering the many fates that could have already befallen him. Moments after he has a heartfelt talk with his wife on their bed, Hesh finds his "wife" dead in their own bed. Tony repays the loan, delay of which was really the cause of Hesh's ill-feelings toward Tony, and while Tony is lighter in the wallet, he still has Carmela at home while Hesh has an empty house with a big bag of cash.

Whose luck ran out? Who lost more in this ep, Tony or Hesh? That, IMO, was the real purpose of that ending.

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

That scene with Carlo and friend in front of the pork store seemed shot to look like it was surveillance footage: darting camera, inability to hear what's being said, etc. I don't think that that scene had anything to do with Renata's death (which, I think, is just one of those things, put in place to allow the final scene with Tony and Hesh), but a subtle reminder that Tony will still have to deal with problems of a different sort - the FBI.

That's exactly the thought I had when I saw that. The scene seemingly had no real point except to offer a very remote vantage point to Tony's comings and goings at the Pork Store, and, perhaps, to introduce the fact that the Arabs who used to hang around the Bing are now hanging out with Muslim cleric types only a block away from the Pork Store (Tony saw them after they drove a short distance from Satriales and stopped at the very next stop light.) This could mean that Tony will show an interest in that location in future eps, since it is so close to a place where he spends a lot of time and since he was obviously intrigued at who these people were when he passed them.

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Forgot to add, re Renata, that there is absolutely no reason for Tony to kill her. He had already made the decision to liquidate some assets before she died to pay Hesh off.

And if he was out to "send a message", number one, you don't do that by making it look like someone died in their sleep of natural causes. Second, Hesh isn't the kind of guy that needs a message sent or who would likely respond to one. He knows Tony, knows the score, knows that at some point it might be "cheaper for Tony to settle the debt another way." Killing his girlfriend would only harden Hesh and push him to create problems for Tony via his other alliances (New York) that Tony in no way wants. Just doesn't add up, to me.

[billyp]

Whose luck ran out? Who lost more in this ep, Tony or Hesh? That, IMO, was the real purpose of that ending.

Great insight!

I've made this point before, but I really think the lesser 'side' characters in the show, like Artie, Hesch etc.., play more of a role in defining Tony as a character, than themselves.

They are involved in plotlines that usually wrap up within one or two episodes and serve to boost Tony's character development.

[AJColossal]

I think its a stretch to think Tony had anything to do with her death.

I think the question imposed by this is whether Tony payed him back out of sympathy.

Would he have payed Hesch back so soon if she didn't die?


I agree that Tony had nothing to do with her death, but only after a little reflection do you come to that conclusion. There's always this feeling of never really being 100% certain of anything on the show that I really love.

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Great insight!

I've made this point before, but I really think the lesser 'side' characters in the show, like Artie, Hesch etc.., play more of a role in defining Tony as a character, than themselves.

They are involved in plotlines that usually wrap up within one or two episodes and serve to boost Tony's character development.

I agree billyp.

Also wanted to compliment your excellent observations on the direction and camera work in this ep. Are you involved in film-making?

[billyp]

I shoot and edit for a news magazine program that airs on the local NBC affiliate in Western MA.

I also freelance.

I see that you do video production. Anything interesting?

[XNYer]

Hello all, long-time lurker and first-time poster. Nothing like leaving things to the last minute.

I have a question -- how much money did Carmela say she made from the spec house? I thought she said "6", but how much money might that be?

Another thing - did anyone else get a feeling of deja vu when Tony left Hesh's house -- it reminded me a bit of the house in the coma with all the pillars. I got a very strange vibe when Tony walked out of a house with death in it that reminded me of that house!

Thanks for all the pleasure of reading everyone's comments and insights. These boards make the show even more pleasurable.

[Rike]

Hello all, long-time lurker and first-time poster. Nothing like leaving things to the last minute.

I have a question -- how much money did Carmela say she made from the spec house? I thought she said "6", but how much money might that be?

Another thing - did anyone else get a feeling of deja vu when Tony left Hesh's house -- it reminded me a bit of the house in the coma with all the pillars. I got a very strange vibe when Tony walked out of a house with death in it that reminded me of that house!

Thanks for all the pleasure of reading everyone's comments and insights. These boards make the show even more pleasurable.\\\


i took it to mean 600g

welcome!

[jouster]

After assuring her (with seeming earnestness and credibility) that he has already provided for her future without him, he uses offshore monies to pay off Hesh and salvage their friendship (a decision made BEFORE Renata died) and brings it with him when he goes to express his condolences to Hesh.

If this is true, it changes my interpretation of the scene a bit. I'll have to rewatch, but considering your eye for detail Fly I'm sure you're right.

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Welcome, XNYer.:smile:

When Carm said "6", I assumed 600,000. IIRC, the lot alone was around 600K (although I'm at a lost to know why from the glimpse of it we saw in Long Term Parking . . . didn't seem too special to me).

The home construction costs were never mentioned. But I'll venture a guess, since I helped manage construction on my brother's home in 2005-2006. It's about 5,000 sq ft under roof, pretty high end overall but with a few very expensive features, e.g., $35,000 for 140 mph certified glass doors spanning the entire back side of the house; motorized sillouhette blinds for the same doors that were themselves well over a ridiculous $30,000. As his house is on the water and has quite a number of jutting nooks on the irregular facade, it took 98 pilings to secure the foundation, a fact that complicated construction engineering and raised overall costs by a substantial amount. He also had to endure a direct hit from Hurricane Dennis during construction, which caused probably $40,000 in deductible losses. He spent just over a million total.

Based on that recent experience with building costs, and since Carm presumably saved a GC's fee by using her dad, I'm going to GUESS that this house probably cost 700-800K to build (afterall, she skimped on lumber:icon_biggrin:, and that probably meant that some other corners were cut as well). I imagine the house sold for close to 2 million dollars, which would comport with the 600K figure in gross profit she reported.

I shoot and edit for a news magazine program that airs on the local NBC affiliate in Western MA.

I also freelance.

I see that you do video production. Anything interesting?

I thought you sounded like a pro.:smile: Nothing real interesting on my end. I actually enjoy the compositing and titling aspect of my work more than anything. I do some work in Boris RED and have a learning copy of Fusion that I'm slowyly acquainting myself with.

But I do have a short script (13 pages) in the works that I'd like to shoot this summer if I can find the right actors. It would be my first stab at that kind of thing. Long term, I'd like to do at least one feature length "film" of my own on something like the HVX-200 or, if I'm really lucky, the new RED 35mm digital camera.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I'd go with a 7.5 but cannot for the life of me think any Soprano's episode is "pointless". Also, see the conversation with Carm and Tony in their bedroom (after the rguement). It is the 2nd episode where she brings up something related to getting out of the mob. Tony also mused with Hesh about how nice it is being at his place. Chase is organically setting this whole thing up for us and these so-called "fluff" episodes have to be here. Besides, great acting and the guys were in a lot of scenes. Chase won't disappoint, keep the faith.

PW

[BennyBlanco]

The first scene w/ Hesh- Tony said that he enjoyed his time with Hesh and alluded to the fact that the rest of Tony's crew were just a bunch of murderers. He lumped Bobby in with the likes of Paulie and Chris, and it seemed like Bobby's hit in the first episode put him in with this group. The isolation of Tony continues.

WHat did hesh say after Tony made that remark. I paused and rewound like 18 times and could not figure out what hesh said. Does anyone know?

[billymac]

WHat did hesh say after Tony made that remark. I paused and rewound like 18 times and could not figure out what hesh said. Does anyone know?

I belive he said: "lonley at the top boychick?"

[gistenhose]

This was an odd episode to me. It was too short, seemed contrived on the surface and rushed.

Below the surface ... When Tony was counselling Vito Jr. he quoted "you go about in pity for yourself" line. It was a thoughtless comment like "be a man". But at some point his entire face softened and he said..."I'm sure you miss your dad....whatever he was". That broke my heart. It seemed like he was relating to little Vito very personally as someone ashamed of his dad, being told to be a man, hating what his dad did but loving him all the same.

Tony continues being disappointed by everyone in this episode. Hesh revealed his selfishness and true motives. Tony can't let go of the money Carm stole. Her whole idea of what's yours is mine and what's mine is mine, hurts him. He blames her for supporting this lifestyle.

Saying changing geography wouldn't change the situation, made me think witness protection was out.

Melfi gave him a hard time. Meadow (gold) let him down. The idea of Hesh's 'house of death' were all more subtle insights than the overt gambling problem. It's his diversion from pain.

All of this is weighing on him. The anxiety the past few episodes make me wish whatever is going to happen will happen already, even though I know when I get answers, it will be over......sounds like Tony.

[Detective Hunt]

I'm still about 50/50 on the episode. I'm not sure I can make a full judgement until I see it again. But a couple of thoughts spring out at me as I read the feedback.

As far as Tony and his gambling, I get the very strong feeling of him not just chasing the gambling, but perhaps something other. I could not say exactly what, but he does not seem to be finding "it" and thus his actions appear to be getting more and more frantic - angry quite often, even malicious, gambling heavier than ever, being nasty with Hesh and yelling at Carm, being cruel to his men...it seems as though he is lashing out.

As for the Arabs, I got the distinct feeling like I was watching old movies, so to speak (one of them even looked a bit like a young Paulie that we saw in the picture last week.) When they rolled by and watched the two men we've seen before dealing with their own people, I got the sense that Tony was seeing a changing of the guard - they are taking over Tony's old neighborhood, and perhaps many of the practices that took place there. Question is - where does that leave Tony?

[dad1153]

It might grow on repeat viewing but I give it a '7' out of the gate. Clearly this was a set-up episode to establish firmly in the minds of clueless viewers (those that only watch the show once) that (a) Tony's gambling is getting out of hand (something that could be missed by a casual viewer in the three previous episodes), (b) who Hesh is (he hasn't been featured enough in the past couple of seasons to be as memorable as Phil or Johnny Sack) and (c) how the gambling is straining Tony's relationship with everybody. The Vito Jr., Carmela's spec house and AJ's break-up sub-plots were slightly interesting but they can only serve as springboards to more interesting subjects. I was reasonably entertained (the one-on-one between Tony and Carmela after their big fight was worth its short length in gold) but can see why others would think this episode was boring and dragged. It's clearly laying the ground for what's to come in the last five episodes.

[haironmelfistwat]

This might very well be Tony at his worst. Incredibly cruel, irresponsible with his money, petty, rage out of control.


I noticed that myself at the end. This episode showed Tony at his absolute worst. These were not the worst things he has done, but his behavior was pretty rotten thoughout the whole hour, and showed how dangerous and petty he can be. For the person who was seeing the Sopranos for the first time, it would be awfully difficult to explain why we like Tony.

[dad1153]

Glad I wasn't the only one that noticed the hand-held camera use early on in the show. On any other show it might be considered a gimmick or a way to speed-up shooting, but on a show like "The Sopranos" it stuck out like the too-obvious CG-generated shake-up when Bobby crashed his SUV and reflected on the washing machine in "Sopranos Home Movies." Maybe its just that the show is ending and the directors are getting whatever cinematic tricks they wanted to use on an episode out of the way, especially since Chase himself is directing the final episode (one less episode for the regular directors to do).

I can't believe nobody has mentioned what instantly jumped at me as the universal theme of the sub-plots in this week's episode (and I ain't talking gambling): "children" (a loose definition of "children") rebelling against their "fathers" and how that has/will affect the rest of their lives.

1.- Tony "rebels" against his father by gambling. Consequence: he gets in too deep and almost loses the love/support of Hesh and Carmela, as well as his privilege to therapy sessions with Dr. Melfi (the only stable relationships he can count on since most of his inner circle are a "bunch of murderers").

2.- Vito Jr. "rebels" against his dead father (not really Vito but the shame of what Vito brought upon the family) by dressing-up/acting "goth" and being a trouble-maker. Consequence (after been given two stern warnings for surrogate father figures, Tony and Phil, that regressed the kid to the point he defecated in the shower): sent away to boot camp in the desert, the poor man's "military academy" solution available to rich folks like the Boss' kid. Speaking of which...

3.- AJ "rebels" against the heritage of his Italian-American family and dates/lives with a woman of Hispanic heritage (still somewhat taboo, although nowhere near as eye-opening in real-life). Consequence (long time in the making): AJ's marriage proposal blows in his face, he loses the only connection to adulthood he's ever had (and his motivation to seek the means to sustain that motivation, i.e. a job) and, judging from the previews for next week's episode, goes back to being a desperate young kid. BTW, the previews took place in AJ's old construction job (where Blanca pressumably still works).

That's three generations of Italian-American offsprings rebelling against the moral norms set by their fathers (and in Vito's case one frowned upon even more than murder and gambling :icon_rolleyes: ). A couple of other rebel-dependent/father-mother figure moments in "Chasing It": Melfi (a professinally-trained authority figure in Tony's life) setting Tony straight about missing appointments, Carmela's father dealing with his daughter's anxiety about the spec house (this has been going as long as the series itself), Hesh-Tony's surrogate father-son relationship straining for money, etc. Let's also remember that, deep inside, Tony and Carmela are disappointed that Meadow has changed careers and basically wasted time with that Finn dude.

Oddly enough this disappointment with Meadow should be the one angering Tony the most. Had Meadow not met Finn Tony wouldn't have hired him to work construction. Which means Finn wouldn't have been at the site when he saw Vito getting a BJ. Which (maybe) means that, through a myrad of circumstances too complicated to contemplate, Tony's best earner would still be around today generating enough cash to cover for the boss' gambling problem. Also, remember in "Stage 5" when Johnny Sack was telling the other prisoners how the old boss got rid of the top earner only after he stopped producing? In "Chasing It" Tony essentially 'got rid' of Vito Jr. as the surrogate figure of Vito Sr. (who wasn't earning anymore), almost as if Tony unconsciously wanted to punish the kid for his own gambling problems. You know, the same way Tony sabotaged his niece Nica's happiness (to compensate for Tony's perceived abandonment from Janice when she left him with Livia) by (a) making Janice paranoid about her daughter splashing in the lake and (b) destroying a piece of what little humanity was left in Bobby that made Nica's father a better man than the one that picked his daughter up to watch their 'magic moment.'

BTW, does Hesh finding his wife dead next to him qualify as this week's "Godfather" tribute of the week? Because all three previous episodes had a vey obvious homage moment to Coppola's series, but unless this sudden death in bed has any parallels to the death of that hooker found next to the Senator at the Nevada brothel controlled by Fredo then I can't for the life on me spot the "Godfather" reference (if any) in "Chasing It."

[ballermann]

so Tony points out to melfi that he didnt have a panic attack since he was shot.
he is in a permanent panic attack since then imho.he only sees the time flow by fast anymore and waits for his death so he doesnt give a crap about anything anymore, while before (his shooting) melfi was working with him to become a better person and live more slowly, but thats all gone it seems.

[billymac]

so Tony points out to melfi that he didnt have a panic attack since he was shot.
he is in a permanent panic attack since then imho.he only sees the time flow by fast anymore and waits for his death so he doesnt give a crap about anything anymore, while before (his shooting) melfi was working with him to become a better person and live more slowly, but thats all gone it seems.

I posted the following in Avellino's "Executioner's Song" Thread, but seems fitting here as well:

Fly - I thought of starting a new thread on your quote about the "Melfi sessions" and what it lead me to consider, but it probably fits in this discussion as well. Why is it that Tony has not had a panic attack since being shot by Junior? He hasn't been seeing Melfi regularly so we can't attribute the lack of attacks to continued treatment.

I suspect that something inside Tony has been resolved...the impetus for the panic attacks now no longer exists in him. But what has been resolved? He still gets depressed. He still has money pressure. He still worries about his immediate family, their lives and futures. He is still subject to criminal prosecution and all of the uncertainty of life (and death) as a mob boss.

While all of these negative stimuli still plainly exist, that pressure which may no longer exist (and which we can't see) is that Tony may have already made a choice with regard to getting out of the life. If he is at last finally at peace with a decision on which direction he wants his life to take (although he has not yet articulated it to anyone else) then the reason for Tony's panic attacks may no longer exist.

[ballermann]

that is ofc also a possibility and it became somewhat obvious when he told carmella (who was crudely mentioning a life 'after him'...pointing out what happened to ginny sac, who had to move in to her daughter) that *they* will not have happen to them what happened to the sacs.
my earlier post was somewhat based on how we see him being very nervous and erratic, maybe he is just playing everybody, true dat.

about vito jr., he in the end showed some guts imho, he showed face to what the other kids called him and stood up for what he is and where he comes from when he crapped in the shower and stepped in it.

[khope07]

I give it a 7.

[bacala2258]

We also keep seeing Tony burn more bridges. Chrissy, Bobby, his thing with Paulie, and now Hesh. I see him finding himself all alone very soon...

Yeah...I am seeing that too. He also did a pretty hard cut on Carlo Gervasi too when he said he didn't earn anywhere close to Vito - OUCH!

Once Tony is alone and has no friends, what is really going to keep him in the mafia before he decides he needs to get out before he gets put out to pasture?

When they were driving through what I thought was a Jewish neighborhood but now want to say Muslim b/c T's driver said he recognized somebody from the Bing...was that the guys that Chris did the credit card deal with from last season? Are we seeing another hint that Tony might actually help the Feds in catching these guys who may be funding terrorists - and this is a different kind of out?

[awpilot]

I enjoyed the tension in the episode, but boy, there was a ton (yet again) of foreshadowing.

Carm saying it seems there is a piano hanging over Tony's head, and that she's afraid it's all going to end badly.

Tony stating that he's been taking care of Carm, she's not going to end up like the other widows and orphans. Obviously, that's not going to go as planned.

The reference to the middle eastern guys and possible terrorist links. Little nuggets have been dropped about that since last season. We'll see how that plays out.

Yet more tension between NJ/NY.

I'm just wishing some of these would start to pan out already.

[WhoeverDidThis1130]

I think I saw it mentioned earlier but did anyone notice how the camera work was strikingly different, esp in the beginning of the episode. It seemed much more handheld and close up than Sopranos is used to doing, probably because Tony was losing money more than ever. Thought it was an interesting choice, especially for veteran director Tim Van Patten.

Also I'd like to say that I loved this episode and I don't see what all the negativity is about. Tony's always been an asshole like this when he gets backed into a corner and I didn't find it unrealistic at all. Everything these writers pump out is pure gold in my eye. Keep up the good work Terence Winter, Matthew Weiner and David Chase, et al. Also I'm really happy to see that all the remaining episodes are written Winter Weiner or Chase or a combination because they (with the exception of Chase, because that just goes without saying) have been some of the best writers on the series IMO. Also happy to see that good diretors are directing the remaining episodes (Van Patten and Alan Taylor) and that the finale will be written and directed by David Chase himself! Oh man I cannot fucking wait.

[chaseisgod]

For 61/2 seasons, we have seen Tony in several gambling situations -- at the track, at the casino, at poker games -- and at no time has he exhibited anything resembling a problem. In fact, taking advantage of problem gamblers, like David the store owner, "is my bread and butter," he has said.

Now, in the course of three episodes, we're supposed to believe that he is an out of control, close to degnerate problem gambler? This seems so far out of character that it's not credible to me.

Obviously (I think), they are using this to show that Tony is becoming unglued, losing conrol, perhaps looking for an escape from his depression, which seems to be increasing as he realizes there's no way out for him. But, like some of the others, this gambling problem seems contrived and artificial to me. It would be more realistic if he has become an alocholic. Or sex addict. :)

A couple of other points:

1. The situation with Tony-Hesh is yet another example of Tony breaking ranks, or having conflict, with the various father figures in his life. Last week was Paulie. Before, it was Uncle Junior. I think they're leading up to his final break, with the idolized memory of his father. Also, I think that last scene, with Tony bringing the money to a grief-stricken Hesh, was one of the coldest things Tony has done since he harassed the "serene" Janice about her son. I thought the message was: Here's what really matters to you, Hesh.

2. What's the deal with Syl? He's always been willing to tell Tony the truth, or at least mostly willing. Yet every single time last night when Tony talked about betting a load of money, Syl encourages him.

3. Somebody somewhere is going to write a dissertation on the subject of Sopranos and Shit. There seems to be some sort of poop reference in every episode, from Ade's bowell problems to Tony cleaning the dogshit from his shoes and handing Christopher the stick, to the notion, as someone else mentioned, that therapy is like taking a shit.

4. More evidence of Tony's weakened status -- Melfi doesn't seem afraid of him anymore, telling him that he either gets with the program or gets out. I also thought that last shot was interesting, where she stands up. That point-of-view made Tony seem very small, even childlike.

5. Meadow has dropped off the planet, for the most part, lucky to get more than one scene. I predict that Chase is engaging in sleight of hand. Most of us, including me, think AJ is going to be prominent in these last few episodes. I think it's going to be Meadow.

[chaseisgod]

P.S. Re: Tony's gambling. I still think it feels contrived, but I probably missed the most logical explanation -- that he's doing exactly what his father told him never to do. Another example of him breaking away, at least subconsciously, from father figures.

[Splishak]

about vito jr., he in the end showed some guts imho, he showed face to what the other kids called him and stood up for what he is and where he comes from when he crapped in the shower and stepped in it.

How do you figure? That makes me think of Lorraine Bracco's line in Goodfellas about the mob wife who cursed at the FBI and then spit on her kitchen floor.

"She spit on her floor. Her own floor! How does that make any sense?

How does VJ stepping in his own shit help him with anything? ... make him feel better about anything?


P.S. A quick shout out to WhoeverDidThis1130: Right On! Exactly what you said!


Also, I think that last scene, with Tony bringing the money to a grief-stricken Hesh, was one of the coldest things Tony has done since he harassed the "serene" Janice about her son. I thought the message was: Here's what really matters to you, Hesh.

I don't get that at all. I can't believe he would give him $200K as a way to insult Hesh. There were many other ways to do that - much cheaper ways. I got the feeling he was feeling bad about some of the monster things he did and was trying to make amends. Remember how he apologized to Carm? Like that.

2. What's the deal with Syl? He's always been willing to tell Tony the truth, or at least mostly willing. Yet every single time last night when Tony talked about betting a load of money, Syl encourages him.

Remember how someone asked Bobby something about why everyone seemed happy and excited for Tony winning so much money (before he lost it)? Bobby's answer was something like, "Big Fucking Deal!" It wasn't exactly that. But he said something that made it clear he couldn't care less if Tony won or lost a million dollars. Bobby no longer cares.

5. Meadow has dropped off the planet, for the most part, lucky to get more than one scene. I predict that Chase is engaging in sleight of hand. Most of us, including me, think AJ is going to be prominent in these last few episodes. I think it's going to be Meadow.


I dunno. But I hope it will be AJ. He's always been more interesting than Meadow. Just ask yourself how interesting Meadow has been? Her failures have been few and far between. She is just some golden child. Not much about that is very interesting.

AJ has always been my favorite character. And Robert Iler - how in the world could he have become such a great actor seemingly overnight? It's as if he attended some great acting schools and graduated all of them at the top of his class - nothing like AJ, LOL! His talent is unbelievably great considering his age and how long it took for him to go from amateur to professional.

[bloodshot]

for those still unsure about whether Tony killed Tony's girlfriend, HBO identifies it as a stroke. i'm not sure how anyone could have interpeted as anything else other then natural causes. after 10 years of watching these guys kill each other there's never anything subtle. how would they have quietly dispatched this poor girl while Hesh is sleeping next to her?

also anyone that still unsure about the realistic aspect of tony's out of control gambling has never been one. it can happen that fast. having said that, i will agree with a very earlier poster that waiting to see a score in the morning paper is a stretch.

[chaseisgod]

also anyone that still unsure about the realistic aspect of tony's out of control gambling has never been one. it can happen that fast. having said that, i will agree with a very earlier poster that waiting to see a score in the morning paper is a stretch.

I think you're very wrong about this, and I do know what I'm talking about. Most problem gamblers are created over a period of years, with the amounts that are bet rising as they need more action to get the buzz. This rarely, rarely happens overnight. We should have seen some evidence of this with Tony before now.

[chaseisgod]

I don't get that at all. I can't believe he would give him $200K as a way to insult Hesh. There were many other ways to do that - much cheaper ways. I got the feeling he was feeling bad about some of the monster things he did and was trying to make amends. Remember how he apologized to Carm? Like that..

Well, maybe. I suppose Tony, who always think that money can solve emotional problems, might think that he was helping Hesh by delivering the bag. But I sure didn't view it that way. He'd been talking the whole show about how Hesh is your basic money-loving Jew (Tony's opinion), so what better way to show Hesh how little he cares about his grief than to pay him back while he's mourning her loss? And look again at Tony's face as he leaves Hesh's house. It wasn't the look of someone who was sharing his good friend's grief. In fact, he couldn't get out of that house fast enough.

[bloodshot]

there has been evidence. he was an ocassional gambler that regularly commented about others being "degenerate gamblers". any occasional player runs that risk of turning to gambling as a vice when depression starts creeping in. it's the same with drinking and drugs. and i'm not totally clear on the time frame here as well. these guys look pretty much in the middle of summer to have NFL games. also, as i was typing this i looked up when the puerto rican day parade is. Always held the 2nd sunday in June. NFL? what am i missing? point is, i don't think you can accurately apply a time frame for his gambling problems.

[chaseisgod]

there has been evidence. he was an ocassional gambler that regularly commented about others being "degenerate gamblers". any occasional player runs that risk of turning to gambling as a vice when depression starts creeping in. it's the same with drinking and drugs. and i'm not totally clear on the time frame here as well. these guys look pretty much in the middle of summer to have NFL games. also, as i was typing this i looked up when the puerto rican day parade is. Always held the 2nd sunday in June. NFL? what am i missing? point is, i don't think you can accurately apply a time frame for his gambling problems.

The first evidence we have that he has a gambling problem is about two weeks ago, when we hear him placing football bets on his cell phone. Actually, most of the evidence we have before that is to the contrary -- we don't see him wagering on Pie-O-My, he was the host for one of those poker games (he did play with David Lee Roth) and I'm not entirely sure, but I think that he was playing with house chips at the Indian casino a few seasons ago. Like I said before, there's a lot more evidence in the past to suggest that he could develop a drinking problem, not a gambling problem.

It just doesn't ring true for me, but I know others disagree.

[bacala2258]

there has been evidence. he was an ocassional gambler that regularly commented about others being "degenerate gamblers". any occasional player runs that risk of turning to gambling as a vice when depression starts creeping in. it's the same with drinking and drugs. and i'm not totally clear on the time frame here as well. these guys look pretty much in the middle of summer to have NFL games. also, as i was typing this i looked up when the puerto rican day parade is. Always held the 2nd sunday in June. NFL? what am i missing? point is, i don't think you can accurately apply a time frame for his gambling problems.

I thought that was bad too b/c wasn't at one point he was betting on both NFL and NBA basketball?

[ballermann]

How do you figure? That makes me think of Lorraine Bracco's line in Goodfellas about the mob wife who cursed at the FBI and then spit on her kitchen floor.

"She spit on her floor. Her own floor! How does that make any sense?

How does VJ stepping in his own shit help him with anything? ... make him feel better about anything?

weird that it makes it think you of that.he stepped into his shit to sicken the other guys.and its not like he would have stepped into somebody elses shit.i dont see where you get that comparison from, do you think it would have been easier for him to step into somebody elses shit?:icon_neutral: he surely wouldnt have stepped into somebody elses shit had there been somebody elses shit laying around, that way he would have lost face. he purposely stamped himself as himself.actually i think he wouldnt even have cared whose shit he would be stepping into, he just wanted to piss the others off, he is beyond 'i have to do this or that now'.

edit: if you think about it its exactly the same and maybe even purposely used as a metaphor for what tony does in this episode.
'dont do this, dont do that...' (gambling)
and bamm you ll behave shocking to get your freedom.

who knows, maybe they are both in their anal phase, tony even brought up the 'you go on about in pity for yourself...' sentence towards vito jr.

[BobK]

I think gambling has replaced women for Tony, he tried to start something last season and could not follow through with it, now it seems that gambling is all he thinks about. How many sessions with Melfi did he talk about women and always having "pussy on the brain"

Women almost destroyed him in more ways than one now he has moved on to another vice that can destroy him and do what his father told him never to do
.

[Garth]

Well, I'll go first this time. I went with 7, because I thought it was a pretty decent episode, but not quite as strong as last week (an 8), or any episode this season, so far. Still though, it was right there - great acting, tense as hell, and it was great to see Hesh again.

Still though, how people could already call "Best ever" or "Worst ever" is way beyond me - I thought it was a fine episode, neither the best nor the worst this series has to offer.

I pretty much agree with everything you said right there UP. It wasn't the best episode and it wasn't the worst. I think this episode is being viewed a bit too harshly. I commend it for it's balance of storylines, in recent episodes, it seems each episode had merely one or two stories going on (not that, that is a bad thing, but earlier on in the series, more stories were juggled in single episodes). We had the Vito Jr. thing, Tony's gambling, Carm's spec house, Tony's debt with Hesh, and AJ & Blanca.

I also think it is great how this episode intertwined other issues to move the seasonal plot forward, meaning Phil moving to Boss and then already having a small beef with Tony and Tony mentioning his distrust of his capos. I don't know, maybe my mind will change upon a second viewing, but I thought it was decent enough. Certainly not the worst of the series. It may not be the weakest episode this season (but I don't even know if it is that) and for a season which isn't even half over that isn't saying alot.

[Splishak]

Consider Carmella the business woman:

Tony paid $600K as a payment for the land. He also says he bought the materials.

During her "business venture", the Building Commission (or whoever) forced her to tear down part of the house and redo it because she (and/or her father) used the wrong wood.

So, all told, if you consider the money that Tony put in for the land and materials, Carmella didn't make money. In fact, if Tony hadn't leaned on the building guy, I'm not sure, but I think she would have had to tear down more of the house for an even greater cost.

How can she be so dense to talk about "her money" as if she made money? Is she just in denial about the $600K etc.?

For some reason, I felt really angry with Carm that after all the money that Tony has given her, she would have this opinion that for some reason this so-called profit was "all hers".

"I thought this was my money." When Tony tells her, "It is your money Carm, I got the image of a father talking down to his mentally disabled daughter saying, "Yes dear. Yes dear. It is your money. And you are the most beautiful girl in the whole country. And you are the next Miss America." He was just humoring her with this bullshit and she was just playing along while they both knew it was pure bullshit.

Carmella the business woman. Oh, really? How many business women get their 80 year old fathers to "help" them with the business? What a joke!

I remember when some guy at work got his father to help him with his building project. The father fell off the roof and suffered serious injuries. They all spent the rest of their lives taking care of the old man and suffered horrendously - financially, emotionally and in many other ways.

Damn Carmella. What is she thinking about getting her father to help her build. Did he get a cut? How much would it have cost her to have gotten a profesional builder involved. Geez! I'm really pissed that she has the nerve to talk about her success and her money. It's absolute rank bullshit!