Hugs Anyone? (Could Tony B be gay)?

[Acqueisce]

Was it me, or was there just way too many hugs going on last night. Don't get me wrong, I think hugging guys is ok but only once, after that you're on my fruit list. Great episode but overly affection was a theme on it's own.

Anyone else notice it?

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub132.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flyonm elfiswall>FlyOnMelfisWall</A> at: 3/16/04 6:21 pm

[SofiaGiovanna]

Acquiesce...this is pure Italian behavior. We (Italians, and Italian Americans) are among the most touchy-feely people around. Even platonically, even when sober! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">

We hug when we're happy, sad, reuniting with someone.
It's like eating. We eat when we're happy, sad,
reuniting with someone.....<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">

</p>

[BakedZiti]

As a member of an extended I-A family, I agree with you, Sofia. The men hug and kiss each other whenever they meet or leave one another or during emotional moments, as well as the women. No one thinks for a second that this is unmasculine or gay behavior; it's an accepted and normal custom in Italian culture. It's not unusual in some other cultures or countries as well.

And as a female, I'm a little uncomfortable with guys who don't/won't touch other guys socially a la The Sopranos. Some other issues usually accompany the fear of physical intimacy. My husband isn't Italian, but after we got engaged he learned to relax and take part in the show of male affection and comraderie. Now, my grown thirty-something stepsons bond in the same way with my Italian male relatives and think it's cool.

A suggestion to the uptight manly males out there: watch and learn. This battered and bombed-out old world could do with a few more more hugs and kisses, no?


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub132.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=bakedz iti>BakedZiti</A> at: 3/15/04 5:17 pm

[Rightfielder21]

Agreed with Sofia and BakedZiti, I'm 20 and I do the same to my uncles and male cousins...

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

This is probably as good a thread as any to mention that another forum with some pretty observant posters are speculating whether Tony Blundetto might be gay.

Among the possible indicia of a gay subtext, they mentioned the inordinate amount of hugging between the two Tonys. And while I agree with all the observations above about Italian (and European) culture and comfort with males displaying affection through hugs and kisses, I, too, noticed when I watched the episode that there was a good bit more hugging than usual.

Some also mentioned Tony S looking at the naked pictures of the two Tonys as babies and remarking that even then his "cannoli" was bigger. (*Note: I don't think anyone was seriously contending that Tony S is gay or is repressing any gay urges, only that this remark could be one thread of a gay subtext underlying Tony B's introduction.)

They mentioned Tony B gravitating to the massage thing, in and of itself, as well as his quip while working on Vito that there's nothing like years in the can to learn how to "ease a man's tensions". (I assume they meant his joking about it was a little reverse psychology, feigning comfort in his heterosexuality by joking around as if he'd done men in the can.) They also pointed to what Tony's viewpoint was when he entered that room -- which, at that point, would have been seeing Tony B almost on top of Vito with his whole body. Tony S displayed a visceral disgust immediately, which led to him blessing Tony B out in the parking lot, so perhaps Tony S had a fleeting thought about Tony B being gay.

Some felt Tony B's wide-eyed ogling of Meadow could possibly have been more of that gay man/straight woman thing of looking at attractive women and complimenting their appearance rather than the almost inappropriate, dirty old man ogling that it seemed at face value.

I would add that it was a tad unusual that Tony B was not shown being offered or receiving the favors of a Bada Bing girl, given he was fresh out of prison and that that sort of "gift" is standard issue first night out from Tony and company. I'd also point to Tony's remark about the ranger in episode one being "light in the Timberlands" and Carmela's response that Tony is always ready to call a man gay, presumably if he isn't outwardly macho enough.

The thing that really gave me pause on the possibility of this scenario being correct is something I read online last year involving a real-life mafia incident with some indirect Sopranos connections. This season has drawn heavy inspiration from actual news events in New Jersey over the last couple of years (the whole class of 2004 thing as reported in the Star Ledger, the wild bears showing up in peoples' yards). So with that in mind, read the following news story from May of 2003 and tell me if it doesn't sound ripe for inclusion in a Sopranos storyline:


<span style="color:maroon;">Secret gay life leaves Mafia capo capped
May 3 2003

The boss of the Mafia family on which the TV series The Sopranos is believed to be based was executed by one of his own soldiers because he was gay and they feared that if news got out the family would be ridiculed by the rest of the underworld, a Manhattan court has been told.

"Nobody's gonna respect us if we have a gay homosexual boss sitting down discussing La Cosa Nostra business," an informer told the court.

John "Johnny Boy" D'Amato, head of the DeCavalcante family, the biggest Mafia family in New Jersey, was shot dead in 1992 after it was rumoured that he was having relationships with other men.

When a DeCavalcante soldier, Anthony Capo, heard the tale from D'Amato's girlfriend he was incredibly angry.

"She told me John D'Amato and her were going to sex clubs in the city, swapping partners and John was engaging in homosexual activity," Capo told the court on Wednesday. "It shocked me . . . He couldn't be acting that way - he was a leader of men."

Capo was giving evidence in the trial of Stefano "Steve" Vitabile and two other mobsters charged with racketeering, murder and conspiracy.

Early in 1992 Capo and another man, Victor DiChiara, picked up D'Amato from his girlfriend's home. As D'Amato sat in the back of the car, Capo turned and shot him four times.

In Mafia culture there is a strict taboo against homosexuality.

"It's all predicated on male prowess and violence," said Clare Longrigg, author of a forthcoming book, No Questions Asked: The Secret Life of Women in the Mob.

"They all have wives and they all have at least one mistress. If they are gay then they would have to keep it incredibly quiet."

So strong is the prejudice that even after the family's leaders had approved D'Amato's murder, they had to be careful how they went about it, lest word of his sexual orientation leaked out.

Normally they would have had to confer with the heads of other crime families before executing someone as senior as D'Amato.

But to share the news was considered so humiliating that they preferred to break Mafia law instead.

"We knew we'd have to sneak him - kill him without permission," Capo said.</span>



a link to the article: www.smh.com.au/articles/2...96372.html (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/02/1051382096372.html)



</p>

[lbwalnj]

I am quite sure a number of men in the LCN are closet bisexuals or homosexuals or keep it well away from the others. Why should the numbers be any different than the general population. I am quite sure not all LCN members have ladies on the side and are loyal to their wives. How many times did people on the old board question if Paulie was gay? So could Tony B be homosexual or bisexual - why not! It could also spice up the plotlines too, maybe with the other guys getting unconfortable being around a homosexual, or it being used against him by the boys or the feds.

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Why should the numbers be any different than the general population.<hr></blockquote>

Well, for the same reason that certain occupations/associations attract an inordinately high number of gay men (e.g., dance, theatre, music (particularly classical music), and artistic endeavors generally), there are those that repel an inordinately high number gay men. I'd bet my right arm that the Mafia is one of the latter, along with American football, hockey, boxing, and basketball. The testosterone-fueled propensity for physical aggression and real or sublimated violence attending all of these is quite simply not possessed or valued by very many gay men. In addition, those that do possess it must be willing to live a complete lie in order to escape the ostricism or outright persecution they would face by peers within those groups.

Yes there are undoubtedly a small number of gay men within all these groups, but their percentages are certain to be well below that in the general population, IMO.


</p>

[ObservingEgo]

I, too, was suspicious of the hugfest. Granted, male-to-male affection is a norm in IA culture. At the same time, in this episode it felt to me as though the hugging was an expression of the ego defense of reaction formation. It served as a means to subvert and redirect hostility/tension/conflict. Example: During tense moments between Tony S. and Tony B., rather than aggress upon one and other, they instead erupted over and over again into hugging, back-slapping, etc. In this episode hugging was definitely eerie....

</p>

[Rightfielder21]

He hasn't seen him in over 15 years... I don't think there is a gay thing at all with it... If anything, this has already been covered in the show with Ralphie...

As Carm would say; It's always a gay thing with you....

</p>

[Dirk McQuigley]

and if anybody on this show might've had same-sex leanings, it would've been Ralphie, I bet.

</p>

[MikeyL]

Fly,
I agree that organized crime probably doesn't draw as many homosexuals as other professions.
Also, you have mentioned that you read various interesting posts on other forums. Could you please post the best one/ones? Thanks!

</p>

[AutomaticPrince]

Maybe it's Italian & Italian American men, but theres nothing wrong with hugging a friend or relative. Just for example today, me, my father, and two very good friends of his went out to breakfast. Afterward, hugs were exchanged. They hadn't seen each other in about a month tops, but they've been through alot throughout their lives. Samething at wakes, funerals, birthdays, weddings, confirmations, and get togethers. Most of the men in my family hug and sometimes a quick peck on the cheek. Its just a sign of love and respect, nothing more.

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Mikey, I skim several boards, and I like this one much more than any other. There are a couple of good posters on most boards, but the only other one with a volume of insightful posts is at TWOP, found here:

forums.televisionwithoutp...wforum=597 (http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showforum=597)

The observations I related above were drawn from that forum.

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

AutoPrince, I guess I should clarify that I am not in any way suggesting that men hugging each other, in and of itself, and most especially within certain European and derivative cultures, indicates or suggests homosexuality. I only noticed that there was more hugging in the last ep than usual, even for the hug-happy Sopranos males, and I found this fact interesting in light of the other things folks observed about the possibility that a gay subtext for Tony Blundetto is being developed. And as I pondered the possibility, my mind immediately jumped to the news story I reproduced above from last year, which is all the more striking because the family involved was the same New Jersey Mafia family upon whom the Sopranos is loosely modeled and because of the particularly heavy influence of real-life headlines in this season's storylines.

If Tony B's sexuality were to be judged here and now, there's no way I would think him gay. But I think a lot of fans, myself included, are constantly driven to speculation about what is coming, and the speculation in this regard I thought worthy of discussion on this board. Rather than create a new thread, however, I modified and posted here, under the existing "hugs" thread, because the original poster was obliquely alluding to the same issue and because I didn't really want to clog the board with yet another original topic.

I hope that clarifies that I certainly find nothing "wrong" with men hugging. I think it's long past time that they were able to do so without self-consciousness or image concerns.

</p>

[Nick]

I would be very disappointed to see any major character end up being gay, especially one of the Tonys. I think that alot of people would lose respect for the show and some would definatly stop watching it. David Chase would never take a chance on the gay angle.

I would definatly quit watching.

Tony gay forgedaboudit!!!!!!

Ciao <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil">

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

Nick, I would lose respect if Tony Soprano wound up being gay, because 4 seasons and about 54 hours of exposition has shown him to be definitively, quintessentially heterosexual. Any reversal of that now would be character annihilation of the greatest magnitude . . . which is, of course, why it will never happen. Sure Tony has the usual dose of "homophobia", but it's not because he in any way doubts his own sexuality.

On the other hand, Tony B is a new character about whom we know very little. We know he was married and has children, but in the milieu he was born and raised in, with its extreme socializing pressures to be heterosexual, that alone doesn't foreclose that he has gay leanings. It would not at all make me lose respect for the show if he turned out to be gay. As a matter of fact, it is a scenario with a heck of a lot of dramatic potential and not without precedent (read above) in real Mafia history.


</p>

[bushleaguer1]

I thought FlyOnMelfisWall's comment about Tony taking immediate exception to the massage session was interesting. That scene shows how consistant the character is in the show. Remember from episode one when Tony makes the comment about the animal guy being "light in the loafers" and Carmela shooting back that its "always a gay thing" with Tony. I didn't pick up that Tony probably felt really uncomfortable watching his cousin massaging a man.

I know they already established AJ as heterosexual, but wouldn't it be interesting to see how Tony were to react if AJ were to tell him one day that he was homosexual?

</p>

[ObservingEgo]

After having watched "Rat Pack" for the fourth time, I stand behind my sense that the hugs portend a sinister element emerging. I am in no way alluding to a homosexual element. Nor am I oblivious to the display of male affection which is elemental in I and IA culture. Rather I am picking up on the following: Ade assertively hugs Tina; later rats her out. Tony S. deceptively hugs Jack while patting him down for wire and ultimately organizing his demise. Then, at least twice the two Tonys embrace after confrontations concerning issues of "respect" and possibly power. In a more characterological deconstruction, I am finding these hugs more to be acts of reaction formation as opposed to "gayness" or the innocence of Italian guys sharing a cheerful bear hug. Something's brewing...

Fly...good points...good posts.

</p>

[Rike]

this tony b gay thing is ridiculous. especially because you are basing it on a few hugs! TONY B IS NOT GAY, HE HAS NEVER BEEN GAY, AND HE WILL NEVER BE GAY.

edfarst, just wanted to make sure you check your inbox. It's easy to miss the icon in the upper right that indicates when you have new mail. Thanks - FlyOnMelfisWall

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub132.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flyonm elfiswall>FlyOnMelfisWall</A> at: 3/17/04 2:11 am

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

OE, yours are very interesting observations. I'll have to watch again, but in the case of the two Tony's, they really only had the one confrontation outside after the massage thing and they didn't hug after that, did they? Were you thinking of the scene in the diner when he declined Tony's offer of mob work?

I hadn't thought about the Tina and Maserone angles. Good catch.

(later) Okay, I just rewatched and forgot about the "you fat" remark. But what was the second confrontation where they hugged after?

BTW, I just thought of two more, probably meaningless oblique or subtextual elements: Uncle Junior remarks that Tony B is a "f------ wierdo if you ask me". And the ring on the cell phone Tony S gave Tony B plays the tune "We Are the Champions" . . . by, of course, Queen.:-)

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub132.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flyonm elfiswall>FlyOnMelfisWall</A> at: 3/17/04 2:23 am

[SofiaGiovanna]

"I stand behind my sense that the hugs portend a sinister element emerging" wrote Observer and I agree.
Remember in the Godfather...big kiss to Fredo and an expression of disappointment by Michael (this is GFII)
and then it's whacked while fishing.
The kiss of death, right?

There's certainly something "different" about Tony B.
He *says* he wants to go legit, for one. He's a massage therapist coming from a mob culture where "massage" is a synonym for 20 bucks and a quickie of some sort. He seems like he belongs in a California spa, not LCN.

Now I'm almost always wrong on my judgment calls so don't go by me, but more alarms for me went off regarding Ralph and his sexuality and the dangers that might cause him within the world of the mob. I just remember the first people that Tony B asks for at Artie's place was his wife and kids. But we'll see. Time will tell.


</p>

[ObservingEgo]

The ominous Tony-to-Tony hugs to which I refer are:

1. We are in the Bada Bing. Tony B. assaults Tony S. with that passively aggressive shtick thing ("mmmm boy are you fat"). Silence descends. The "guys" wait for Tony S's reaction. Tony S. vacillates momentarily, then leans over, giving Tony B. one of those sideways kind of shoulder hugs. At that moment I do think, although I very well could be wrong, that Tony S. was feeling any kind of affection for his cousin. He had just been humiliated...lost face. But, he chose to diffuse the situation with a reactive formation gesture: the hug as opposed to the slug.

2. Now we are in the diner. The two Tonys discuss Tony B's "career" future. Bottom line: Tony B., for all intensive purposes, rejects his cousins plans for him. At the end of the meeeting, again the hug thing. Internally I do not think that each one was feeling huge affection for the other, or any type of male bonding. Tony B. was most likely quite anxious about his rejecting the boss. And, Tony S. was processing this new slight, another narcissistic wounding. Remember it was only recently that Dr. Melfi had also declined Tony, citing her reservations regarding his moral choices. A double whammy. Bottom line this hug was another defense against tension...conflict...ongoing rivalry(?).

Fly, Sofia...rich posts. ~OE (On hiatus from Board for a week)


</p>

[ObservingEgo]

error: I meant to write in above post, "At that moment, I do NOT think......" sorry,

~OE

</p>

[Acqueisce]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>BTW, I just thought of two more, probably meaningless oblique or subtextual elements: Uncle Junior remarks that Tony B is a "f------ wierdo if you ask me". And the ring on the cell phone Tony S gave Tony B plays the tune "We Are the Champions" . . . by, of course, Queen.:-)<hr></blockquote>

FOMW, I have to say, I'm impressed with your analytical viewpoints and never expected this post to progress this far. My only concern was the fact that there was too much affection going on in this episode than usual, and it's obvious now, I'm not the only one who feels this way.

With that said, I really believe David Chase will not make a homosexual character out of Steve Buscemi, and I don't really see Steve accepting this role unless he was really desperate for work (no I'm not saying gay roles are calling for desperate actors), he just has too much talent to take on this type of character. Actors often fit the roles the public wants to see, for example, Arnold Schwarzenegger was a nobody in the first Terminator, but in Terminator 2 he was a good guy, why? Because the public simply would not accept him as another bad Terminator. Another example is Eddie Murphy, I know myself, I'll never forget the raunchy standup acts Delirious & Raw which was great comedy, but now he's one of America's favorite family icons and we'll never see him do an act like that again.

So with this in mind, David Chase should not create a gay character of Steve, I just wouldn't buy it. I would be very disappointed if he did, and according to other viewpoints expressed in this topic thread, so would other people. I think it would be a bad career move on Steve's part.

</p>

[FlyOnMelfisWall]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>he just has too much talent to take on this type of character. Actors often fit the roles the public wants to see, . . .<hr></blockquote>

I have to disagree, Acquiesce. First, Buscemi is no where near the "leading man"/commercially viable actor that either Schwarzenegger or Eddie Murphy are/were. His name will not greenlight a major studio production, and he alone won't "put butts in seats". I dare say that nobody in my family even knows his name (and my brother in particular sees a LOT of movies).

And, frankly, I'm certain that's just the way Buscemi likes it. He is a quirky character actor with a penchant for unusual roles in mostly small films and a very good reputation among his peers. He's the kind of actor that thrives on doing something different with every project because he's driven first and foremost by creative consdierations.

It's for precisely these reasons that I think he would gravitate to an intelligently-written gay wiseguy role. The concept is obviously quirky and offbeat and different from anything he's done that I've ever seen. And for obvious reasons, he wouldn't be playing stereotypical "gayness". There's nothing in Tony B's dress, speech, or mannerisms that suggests homosexuality, and there never could have been, else he wouldn't have ever been in the mob to begin with. So if in fact Chase is headed that direction, the material given Buscemi will all be laced with subtlety and subtext and a vague sense that the character is troubled on the inside and is trying to hide it from his cronies -- exactly the kind of stuff that excites good actors. Then perhaps there will be an explicit scene much later on that confirms it all.

I still think it makes for an incredible conflict, one that has not been intelligently treated before. In fact, "The Mexican" is the only precedent I know of, and it was hardly realistic or intelligent. For these reasons, and, again, because of the historical precedent in New Jersey's DeCavalcante family, I think it is certainly something David Chase would find very interesting and would consider doing. Whether he is in fact doing it remains to be seen.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub132.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flyonm elfiswall>FlyOnMelfisWall</A> at: 3/18/04 2:23 pm

[jadenite]

I saw it that the whole Tony/Tony hug thing was initiated by Tony S.
Tony B seemed uncomfortable with, as he seemed with all the mafia stuff.
Tony S was happy to see his long lost cousin at first (hugs all round), but as time went on the hugs seemed to become more desperate or plaintive, as though he was trying to hold it all together.
When Tony B came out, he was hoping for a return to the old rat pack days, a simpler more carefree time, when in reality, Tony's life is falling apart, no wife, no kids, no home, and now even his big plans for his returning cousin are snubbed.
Tony B wanting to go legit is a judgement on Tony S, and as we know, he doesnt handle criticism well.
He resents Tony B not needing him, its doing him out of his role as the one they all depend on.
Those hugs speak volumes, and its our own tony who's talking.....

</p>