*Eastern Religion/Philosophy Thread*

[De Novo]

I’m posting this thread in the latest episode discussion, but hopefully with the help of the moderators it can be moved to an appropriate place afterward, or be moved into subsequent episode threads along with the “Tony’s Potential Change” thread.

The primary reason I’m creating this thread is that I feel this season’s Eastern influence – which I feel is of key importance to both the show’s philosophy and the season’s plot – has not been discussed nearly enough. Hopefully this will provide an opportunity to revisit the Seven Souls, the Finnerty sequence and the overarching Buddhist and other philosophical Eastern themes and concepts, all of which have continued relevance as this story progresses.

Below I’ve pasted the Burroughs text (along with the characters I believe are associated with each “soul”; feel free to discuss, dispute or correct these connections) and outside information on the seven souls of Egyptian mythology, as well as online material on Buddhist concepts that I feel are important to this season: the Four Noble Truths, Anatman, Karma, Samsara, Nirvana, and the Noble Eight-Fold Path. Aside from the monks, their lawsuit (pure karma), and several other Buddhist references, something that has tipped me off to Chase’s possible intention is the odd numbers of this season and the “bonus” episodes – 12 and 8. I think this season as a whole may be a meditation on samsara and its Twelve Links of Dependent Origination, while the final 8 could represent the Noble Eight-Fold Path or its inverse. See the section on Samsara below, the stages of which may be linked to themes or events in the episodes we’ve seen thus far.

I doubt Chase fully subscribes or is adhering strictly to any of these concepts, but I think it’s fair to say that in the wake of Tony’s NDE, we are seeing him moving from ignorance toward enlightenment, evolving (or attempting to evolve) from selfishness and evil deeds into a larger recognition of the universe, his place in it and his duty toward others. Whether he ever gets there or returns to a cycle of ignorance and serial karmic disturbance will determine the fate of his body and soul.

I think the “Seven Souls” idea ties into the deliberate contrasts to Tony that have defined each episode thus far (in order: Eugene, Finnerty, Silvio, Paulie, Johnny Sac, Vito, Artie, and A.J.), each character potentially representing a part of Tony’s personality, a fragment of his soul, a potential path for his character, or all of the above. In this way, even the less “Tony-centric” episodes actually ARE about Tony, who according to the religious beliefs of the monks and the metaphysical principles of Hal Holbrook’s scientist is defined equally by what he was, is not and will be. This is all open to interpretation, and I sincerely hope people offer their own. More to follow.


</p>

[De Novo]

Burroughs – Seven Souls

The ancient Egyptians postulated seven souls: (the “subject” is TONY SOPRANO)

-&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Top soul, and the first to leave at the moment of death, is Ren, the Secret Name. This corresponds to my Director. He directs the film of your life from conception to death. The Secret Name is the title of your film. When you die, that's where Ren came in. (No direct character association, but I assume it’s CHASE himself, or perhaps KEVIN FINNERTY)
-&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Second soul, and second one off the sinking ship, is Sekem: Energy, Power, Light. The Director gives the orders, Sekem presses the right buttons. (EUGENE PONTECORVO)
-&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Number three is Khu, the Guardian Angel. He, she, or it is third man out . . . depicted as flying away across a full moon, a bird with luminous wings and head of light. The Khu is responsible for the subject and can be injured in his defense – but not permanently, since the first three souls are eternal. They go beck to Heaven for another vessel. (MEADOW)

The four remaining souls must take their chances with the subject in the Land of the Dead (for our purposes, THE MAFIA).

-&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Number four is Ba, the heart, often treacherous. This is a hawk's body with your face on it, shrunk down to the size of a fist. Many a hero has been brought down, like Samson, by a perfidious Ba. (RAYMOND CURTO, or possibly VITO)
-&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Number five is Ka, the Double, most closely associated with the subject. The Ka, which usually reaches adolescence at the time of bodily death, is the only reliable guide through the Land of the Dead to the Western Lands. (A.J.)
-&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Number six is Khaibit, the Shadow, Memory, your whole past conditioning from this and other lives. (ADRIANNA)
-&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Number seven is Sekhu, the Remains. (JUNIOR, or possibly CARMELA)


The following is what follows in Burroughs’ book; it’s a mixture of nonsense with potentially helpful information bolded. Particularly noteworthy are some of the concepts (cancer, AIDS, rats, the mafia itself) which have been referenced by characters implicitly or directly:


Ren, the Director, the Secret Name, is your life story, your destiny – in one word or one sentence, what was your life about? Nixon: Watergate. Billy the Kid: Quien es? And what is the Ren of the Director? Actors frantically packing in thousands of furnished rooms and theatrical hotels: "Don't bother with all that junk, John. The Director is on stage! And you know what that means in show biz: every man for himself."

Sekem corresponds to my Technician: Lights. Action. Camera. ' "Look, boss, we don't got enough Sek to fry an elderly woman in a fleabag hotel fire. And you want a hurricane?" "Well, Joe, we'll just have to start faking it" "Fucking moguls don't even know what buttons to push or what happens when you push them. Sure; start faking it and leave the details to Joe." Look, from a real disaster you get a pig of Sek: sacrifice, tears, heartbreak, heroism and violent death. Always remember, one case of VD yields more Sek than a cancer ward. And you get the lowest acts of which humans are capable – remember the Italian steward who put on women's clothes and so filched a seat in a lifeboat? "A cur in human shape, certainly he was born and saved to set a new standard by which to judge infamy and shame." With a Sek surplus you can underwrite the next one, but if the first one's a fake you can't underwrite a shithouse. Sekem is second man out: “No power left in this set.” He drinks a bicarbonate of soda and disappears in a belch.

Lots of people don't have a Khu these days. No Khu would work for them. Mafioso Don: "Get offa me, Khu crumb! Worka for a living!" Ba, the Heart: that's sex. Always treacherous. Suck all the Sek out of a man. Many Bas, have poison juices. The Ka is about the only soul a man can trust. If you don't make it, he don't make it. But it is very difficult to contact your real Ka. Sekhu is the physical body, and the planet is mostly populated with walking Sekhus, just enough Sek to keep them moving. The Venusian invasion is a takeover of the souls. Ren is degraded by Hollywood down to John Wayne levels. Sekem works for the Company. The Khus are all transparent fakes. The Bas is rotten with AIDS. The Ka is paralyzed. Khaibit sits on yon like a nagging wife. Sekhu is poisoned with radiation and contaminants and cancer.

There is intrigue among the souls, and treachery. No worse fate can befall a man than to be surrounded by traitor souls. And what about Mr. Eight-Ball, who has these souls? They don't exist without him, and he gets the dirty end of every stick. Eights of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your dirty rotten vampires: A hundred years ago there were rat-killing dogs known as "Fancies." A man bet on his "Fancy," how many rats he would kill. The rats were confined in a circular arena too high for a rat to jump over. But they formed pyramids, so that the top rats could escape. Sekhu is bottom rat in the pyramid. Like the vital bottom integer in a serial, when that goes, the whole serial universe gone up in smoke. It never existed. Angelic boys who walk on water, sweet inhuman voices from a distant star. The Khu, sweet -bird of night, with luminous wings and a head of light, flies across the full moon . . . a born-again redneck raise's his shotgun. . . . "Stinkin' Khu!"

The Egyptians recognized many degrees of immortality. The Ren and the Sekem and the Khu are relatively immortal, but still subject to injury. The other souls who survive physical death are much more precariously situated. Can any soul survive the searing fireball of an atomic blast? If humans and animal souls are seen as electromagnetic force fields, such fields could be totally disrupted by a nuclear explosion. The mummy's nightmare: disintegration of souls, and this is precisely the ultrasecret and supersensitive function of the atom bomb: a Soul Killer, to alleviate an escalating soul glut.

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[De Novo]

Four Noble Truths

At the core of the Buddha’s enlightenment was the realization of the Four Noble Truths:

1)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Life is suffering. This is more than a mere recognition of the presence of suffering in existence. It is a statement that, in its very nature, human existence is essentially painful from the moment of birth to the moment of death. Even death brings no relief, for the Buddha accepted the Hindu idea of life as cyclical, with death leading to further rebirth.
2)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp All suffering is caused by ignorance of the nature of reality and the craving, attachment, and grasping that result from such ignorance.
3)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Suffering can be ended by overcoming ignorance and attachment.
4)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp The path to the suppression of suffering is the Noble Eightfold Path, which consists of right views, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right-mindedness, and right contemplation. These eight are usually divided into three categories that form the cornerstone of Buddhist faith: morality, wisdom, and samadhi, or concentration.

Anatman

Buddhism analyzes human existence as made up of five aggregates or “bundles” (skandhas): the material body, feelings, perceptions, predispositions or karmic tendencies, and consciousness. A person is only a temporary combination of these aggregates, which are subject to continual change. No one remains the same for any two consecutive moments. Buddhists deny that the aggregates individually or in combination may be considered a permanent, independently existing self or soul (atman). Indeed, they regard it as a mistake to conceive of any lasting unity behind the elements that constitute an individual. The Buddha held that belief in such a self results in egoism, craving, and hence in suffering. Thus he taught the doctrine of anatman, or the denial of a permanent soul. He felt that all existence is characterized by the three marks of anatman (no soul), anitya (impermanence), and dukkha (suffering). The doctrine of anatman made it necessary for the Buddha to reinterpret the Indian idea of repeated rebirth in the cycle of phenomenal existence known as samsara. To this end he taught the doctrine of pratityasamutpada, or dependent origination. This 12-linked chain of causation shows how ignorance in a previous life creates the tendency for a combination of aggregates to develop. These in turn cause the mind and senses to operate. Sensations result, which lead to craving and a clinging to existence. This condition triggers the process of becoming once again, producing a renewed cycle of birth, old age, and death. Through this causal chain a connection is made between one life and the next. What is posited is a stream of renewed existences, rather than a permanent being that moves from life to life—in effect a belief in rebirth without transmigration.



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[De Novo]

Dependent Origination

One way to understand the suffering nature of samsara is to meditate on the gradual evolution of the twelve links of dependent origination, (Skt: pratitya samutpada; Tib: ten-drel. chu-nyi) as Guru Shakyamuni showed. This is represented by the symbolic drawing of the wheel of life, (Skt: samsaracakra; Tib: sib-pe-k’or-lo) also called the circle of the twelve dependent originations. It is held in the mouth of the Lord of Death, showing how all beings who live in the six realms of samsara are controlled by impermanence and death. The wheel is also supported by his hands and feet, symbolizing how these beings are trapped by true suffering and the true cause of suffering—delusion and karma.

Most sentient beings are suffering in this circle of interdependent origination. Its root is ignorance, which is the complete opposite of the Dharma wisdom that perceives the absolute reality. The twelve links are:
(1) ignorance or unawareness, which imagines self and the world to have intrinsic existence;
(2) conditioning, the karmic forces that ripen in the ground of ignorance from seeds sown in previous lives and form the conditioning factors of the next life;
(3) consciousness, arising from conditioning, which carries the sense of self and operates through the mind and senses;
(4) name and form, the totality of an individual’s mental and physical constituents;
(5) the six senses: sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and mental faculty;
(6) contact, the meeting of the senses with their objects;
(7) feeling, the positive or negative sensations aroused by contact;
(<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"> thirst, the desire to possess or avoid these sensations;
(9) grasping, the physical, verbal or mental action that follows thirst;
(10) existence or becoming, the coming into existence that results from grasping;
(11) birth, manifesting in one of the six realms;
(12) decay and death, the process of aging and passing away that inevitably follows birth.

The circle of the twelvefold chain is continuous, a self-contained system without beginning or end. At death we fall back into ignorance and start all over again. The whole cycle can be contemplated in reverse order, starting with death and tracing its causes back to ignorance. Although the links appear sequentially, they may also be seen as interconnected, simultaneous, and mutually dependent. The wheel is a schematic picture, designed to demonstrate the conditioned and relative nature of apparent existence, while exposing sentient beings’ intense attachment and habituation to the causes of suffering.

For significant as life and death may seem, genuine as suffering is, and seriously as we must regard the law of karma, as long as we remain within samsara, nothing produced by interdependent origination has ultimate reality. It is an illusion appearing from ignorance, whose nature is the error of belief in self. Since it has never existed it cannot be destroyed. It is dispelled only by the wisdom of non-self. Transcending both existence and nonexistence, it is self-liberated into emptiness, the vast openness of space beyond conceptual thought.


</p>

[De Novo]

Probably enough for now; I'll save karma, nirvana and the 8-fold path for later.

</p>

[jimmythefish82]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>- Top soul, and the first to leave at the moment of death, is Ren, the Secret Name. This corresponds to my Director. He directs the film of your life from conception to death. The Secret Name is the title of your film. When you die, that's where Ren came in. (No direct character association, but I assume it’s CHASE himself, or perhaps KEVIN FINNERTY)
- Second soul, and second one off the sinking ship, is Sekem: Energy, Power, Light. The Director gives the orders, Sekem presses the right buttons. (EUGENE PONTECORVO)
- Number three is Khu, the Guardian Angel. He, she, or it is third man out . . . depicted as flying away across a full moon, a bird with luminous wings and head of light. The Khu is responsible for the subject and can be injured in his defense – but not permanently, since the first three souls are eternal. They go beck to Heaven for another vessel. (MEADOW)

The four remaining souls must take their chances with the subject in the Land of the Dead (for our purposes, THE MAFIA).

- Number four is Ba, the heart, often treacherous. This is a hawk's body with your face on it, shrunk down to the size of a fist. Many a hero has been brought down, like Samson, by a perfidious Ba. (RAYMOND CURTO, or possibly VITO)
- Number five is Ka, the Double, most closely associated with the subject. The Ka, which usually reaches adolescence at the time of bodily death, is the only reliable guide through the Land of the Dead to the Western Lands. (A.J.)
- Number six is Khaibit, the Shadow, Memory, your whole past conditioning from this and other lives. (ADRIANNA)
- Number seven is Sekhu, the Remains. (JUNIOR, or possibly CARMELA)<hr></blockquote>


My take on the seven souls/character association were:
1 - Ren - Kevin Finnerty
2 - Sekem - Christopher
3 - Khu - Meadow

4 - Ba - Junior or Livia
5 - Ka - AJ
6 - Khaibit - Junior or Livia
7 - Sekhu - Carmela

Any thoughts? Obviously Livia is the only one here who doesnt appear in this season, which I thought tied in quite nicely with the "conditioning from this and other lives". But on the other hand would tie in with the treachery that almost destroyed 'our subject'. Similarly both Ba and Khaibit could apply to Junior, for similar reasons, the hit and the shooting as the "treachery", but also his position in Tony's life as a sort of surrogate father (esp in childhood) - and at least before the onset of his alzeimhers/dementia - as the "heart" and "past conditioning". I'm split on these two.

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[jeff41954]

I am sorry, but I will have to wait for the movie version of this thread.

Carry on.

This response offers absolutely nothing to the discussion started in this thread. Please do not feel the need to add a sarcastic response towards anothers hard work. Consider this a warning.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=detectiv ehunt>Detective Hunt</A> at: 5/2/06 12:06 pm

[Detective Hunt]

This is fascinating stuff, De Novo, and thank you for starting this thread. I was taken by your suggestion that the numbers 12 and 8 were more meaningful than say, what HBO was able to get out of Chase.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> And when looking at the listing of the 12 parts of dependent origination, it becomes clear that each are at least partly being used as a premise for each episode. You listed:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Most sentient beings are suffering in this circle of interdependent origination. Its root is ignorance, which is the complete opposite of the Dharma wisdom that perceives the absolute reality. The twelve links are:
(1) ignorance or unawareness, which imagines self and the world to have intrinsic existence;
(2) conditioning, the karmic forces that ripen in the ground of ignorance from seeds sown in previous lives and form the conditioning factors of the next life;
(3) consciousness, arising from conditioning, which carries the sense of self and operates through the mind and senses;
(4) name and form, the totality of an individual’s mental and physical constituents;
(5) the six senses: sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and mental faculty;
(6) contact, the meeting of the senses with their objects;
(7) feeling, the positive or negative sensations aroused by contact;
(8 ) thirst, the desire to possess or avoid these sensations;
(9) grasping, the physical, verbal or mental action that follows thirst;
(10) existence or becoming, the coming into existence that results from grasping;
(11) birth, manifesting in one of the six realms;
(12) decay and death, the process of aging and passing away that inevitably follows birth.<hr></blockquote>

And we have seen:

(1) ignorance or unawareness, which imagines self and the world to have intrinsic existence - Member's Only where Tony seemingly has regressed or returned to some form of ignorance regarding his life.

(2) conditioning, the karmic forces that ripen in the ground of ignorance from seeds sown in previous lives and form the conditioning factors of the next life - Join the Club in which Tony sees himself as Finnerty and his early NDE begins to perhaps "condition" him for possible awareness.

(3) consciousness, arising from conditioning, which carries the sense of self and operates through the mind and senses - Mayham in which Tony regains consciousness literally while also becoming more aware of his Finnerty self.

(4) name and form, the totality of an individual’s mental and physical constituents - The Fleshy Part of the Thigh in which Paulie learns he is not who he is, which doubles somewhat with Tony's own past mother issues (I'm sure there is more to be culled from this episode).

(5) the six senses: sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and mental faculty - Mr. and Mrs. Johnny Sacrimoni Request in which we see, hear, etc. much at the wedding of JS's daughter, and then end on a note of sure physical sensation - the puking after Tony attempts to maintain his place as strong. (This one is tenuous, I admit).

(6) contact, the meeting of the senses with their objects - Live Free or Die in which Vito certainly makes contact with that which he desires, though how it was manifested in Tony himself, I cannot yet see.

(7) feeling, the positive or negative sensations aroused by contact - Luxery Lounge in which Chris must once again come to terms with his life outside of the movie business (and certainly has much contact with that very same) as well as Artie reconnecting with the feeling of his true self as chef at the end. This one seems quite clear.

(8 ) thirst, the desire to possess or avoid these sensations - Johnny Cakes in which we see Tony certainly have a thirst, but in the end deny himself that and in doing so cause much frustration as he surely does not yet understand what he may be going through.

Now, there is no doubt that this could be stretching, and I have tried very hard not to look too deeply into certain aspects of the show, because often times we start looking with a premise at hand and then only make the information fit around that premise, leaving other inconvenient information aside.

But with that said, I think there is defintely something here to continue looking at. It will be interesting to see if the final four episodes of this portion of the season lend themselves to the last four parts of the above. I'll certainly be looking for signs of that now.

</p>

[jimmythefish82]

Great post, DH. Will keep an eye out for signs in the following four episodes myself.

</p>

[De Novo]

Great post DH! I was hoping someone would draw those connections and let me off the hook.

It's important to note that the end of the cycle is not literal death, but a return to ignorance. So I think that's what we could be seeing here, if and when Tony's "decompensation" occurs. If this template holds, I fully expect him to return to his old self, either by killing Junior or some other major character himself, sleeping with Julianna or some other readily available woman, fully returning to the throes selfishness and greed, or all of the above. Or, he could hold together and move on to awareness and greater peace with himself, in which case his inner peace will cost him his outer life as hostile forces close in around him. We'll see.

</p>

[Detective Hunt]

As a follow up to my previous post, I thought I would add part 9 after seeing The Ride

(9) grasping, the physical, verbal or mental action that follows thirst - The Ride in which I think we can safely say that Tony is grasping at something or some part of his life prior to the shooting - the theft with Chris and pushing him to drink once more, grasping at the truth and/or lies with Melfi and when discussing Ade's death with Carmela. In fact, there was even physical grasping (though this is really a stretch) with Janice's baby.

I think it helps show that Tony is feeling some of the potential enlightenment, especially after denying himself the thirst he had for extracurricular sex in the previous episode, but he does not yet understand it. He seems bored in this episode, but unlike his previous feelings of boredom brought on by doing less of the dirty work himself, he may be finding himself bored because many of those actions don't quite register as they once did. He used to enjoy this life, but now - perhaps not so much. Notice how swiftly the thrill and joy of his stolen wine wears off. Yet, he does not understand why and may be grasping for the truth.

Further, we had Chris grasping at something he knows will help take his mind of Ade, and even Paulie grasping at the mother's love he shunned earlier, now that he may have cancer. There is probably more that I am not recalling since I have only seen the episode once (and the first half a second time.)

And De Novo - I certainly hope you will include the post or posts on karma, nirvana and especially the 8 fold path when you have the chance. I definitely think these thematic elements are informing the direction Chase is taking the show and Tony.

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[De Novo]

Nice work again DH! I agree completely, and think Tony's "boredom" and "grasping" at the vestiges of his old life certainly fit this model.

Per request, here are explanations copied from elsewhere on Karma and Nirvana. Karma certainly ties into the Finnerty sequence, the Buddhist monks and their "lawsuit," which seems to be a method of making Tony pay for his evil deeds in life. However, Tony did not die, and as is becoming increasingly clear, he was not "reborn" in any physical or spiritual way. We are likely witnessing him embracing all of the traits that made him a serial offender by Buddhist or Christian or any other standard of conduct, falling back into ignorance within the context of Samsara.

Thus, Tony will probably not achieve "nirvana" or peace with himself, nor will he attain the cessation of suffering that arrives by following the 8-fold path. This is why I think the remainder of the story, if tragic, could signify the path's inverse, where Tony does everything "wrong."


Karma

Karma consists of a person’s acts and their ethical consequences. Human actions lead to rebirth, wherein good deeds are inevitably rewarded and evil deeds punished. Thus, neither undeserved pleasure nor unwarranted suffering exists in the world, but rather a universal justice. The karmic process operates through a kind of natural moral law rather than through a system of divine judgment. One’s karma determines such matters as one’s species, beauty, intelligence, longevity, wealth, and social status. According to the Buddha, karma of varying types can lead to rebirth as a human, an animal, a hungry ghost, a denizen of hell, or even one of the Hindu gods…

Nirvana

The ultimate goal of the Buddhist path is release from the round of phenomenal existence with its inherent suffering. To achieve this goal is to attain nirvana, an enlightened state in which the fires of greed, hatred, and ignorance have been quenched. Not to be confused with total annihilation, nirvana is a state of consciousness beyond definition. After attaining nirvana, the enlightened individual may continue to live, burning off any remaining karma until a state of final nirvana (parinirvana) is attained at the moment of death.

In theory, the goal of nirvana is attainable by anyone, although it is a realistic goal only for members of the monastic community. In Theravada Buddhism an individual who has achieved enlightenment by following the Eightfold Path is known as an arhat, or worthy one, a type of solitary saint. For those unable to pursue the ultimate goal, the proximate goal of better rebirth through improved karma is an option. This lesser goal is generally pursued by lay Buddhists in the hope that it will eventually lead to a life in which they are capable of pursuing final enlightenment as members of the sangha.

The ethic that leads to nirvana is detached and inner-oriented. It involves cultivating four virtuous attitudes, known as the Palaces of Brahma: loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity. The ethic that leads to better rebirth, however, is centered on fulfilling one’s duties to society. It involves acts of charity, especially support of the sangha, as well as observance of the five precepts that constitute the basic moral code of Buddhism. The precepts prohibit killing, stealing, harmful language, sexual misbehavior, and the use of intoxicants. By observing these precepts, the three roots of evil—lust, hatred, and delusion—may be overcome.


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[De Novo]

The Eight-Fold Path

The Noble Eightfold Path (Pali: ariya atthangika magga), according to Buddhism and as taught by Siddhartha Buddha, is the way to the cessation of suffering, the fourth part of the Four Noble Truths. It is summarized into three important categories: wisdom (pañña), virtue (sila), and concentration (samadhi).

The following is An Analysis of the Path, a sutra or discourse delivered by Siddhartha Buddha from the Tipitaka, explaining this Noble Eightfold Path in detail. In all these, the word "right" is a translation of the word sammā (Pāli; Sanskrit: Samyañc), which denotes completion, togetherness, or coherence, and which can also carry the sense of "perfect" or "ideal".

Wisdom
(pañña)
1. Right Understanding (or Right View, or Right Perspective) - samma ditthi
"And what, monks, is right understanding? Knowledge with regard to suffering, knowledge with regard to the origination of suffering, knowledge with regard to the stopping of suffering, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of suffering: This, monks, is called right understanding."
2. Right Thought (or Right Intention, or Right Resolve, or Right Aspiration) - samma sankappa
"And what is right thought? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is called right thought."

Virtue (Ethical Conduct)
(sila)
3. Right Speech - samma vaca
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech."
4. Right Action - samma kammanta
"And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity: This, monks, is called right action."
5. Right Livelihood - samma ajiva
"And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, monks, is called right livelihood."

Concentration (Mental Development)
(samadhi)
6. Right Effort (or Right Endeavour) - samma vayama
"And what, monks, is right effort?
(i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
(iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development and culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen:
This, monks, is called right effort."
7. Right Mindfulness - samma sati
"And what, monks, is right mindfulness?
(i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on (his/her) body in and of itself... ardent, aware, and mindful...putting away greed and distress with reference to the world.
(ii) (He/she) remains focused on feelings in and of themselves...ardent, aware, and mindful...putting away greed and distress with reference to the world.
(iii) (He/she) remains focused on the mind in and of itself...ardent, aware, and mindful...putting away greed and distress with reference to the world.
(iv) (He/she) remains focused on mental qualities in and of themselves...ardent, aware, and mindful...putting away greed and distress with reference to the world.
This, monks, is called right mindfulness."
8. Right Concentration - samma samadhi
"And what, monks, is right concentration?
(i) There is the case where a monk...not ardent, quite withdrawn from sensuality, but mindful and alert, enters in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from detachment, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation.
(ii) With the stilling of directed thought and evaluation, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of concentration; fixed single-pointed awareness free from directed thought and evaluation; assurance.
(iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful and fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters and remains in the third jhana which the Noble Ones declare to be "Equanimous and mindful, (he/she) has a pleasurable abiding."
(iv) With the abandoning of pleasure and pain...as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress...he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither in pleasure nor in pain. This, monks, is called right concentration."




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[Detective Hunt]

Once again, I think it apt to look into how this continuing theme plays into the latest episode. In fact, I thought it particularly curious that Paulie uses the line "I must have done some good shit in my time" or some such. That is certainly karma like thought, whether he knows it or not (and my guess is Paulie Walnuts does not.) <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

Number 10 is as follows: (10) existence or becoming, the coming into existence that results from grasping

In Moe N' Joe, I admit, I am having some difficulty seeing this angle. If anything, I think we could say that Vito at least goes this route. We did not see his thirst or grasping stage, but he certainly shows us the existance of this thrist, grasping and existance in this one episode alone.

For Tony, it is harder to see. I am begining to feel a little "forest for the trees" at the moment. We get so much information each episode without much to really tie it to anything. There was certainly some feeling that Tony is becoming more comfortable in his old skin in this episode - taking Johnny for more in the deal with the businessmen, screwing Carm out of the spec house to get back at her, and perhaps even moving right back in to the same dynamic with his family - Janice in particular as double for Livia.

And as much as Tony needs to confront his father in all of this, I am beginning to doubt he ever will. Melfi asked him, once again about yet another woman, "does she remind you of anyone?" And yet again, Tony declines to answer.

So perhaps the existance or becoming is Tony returning to that which he knew before and starting to forsake all of these inner thoughts that came out of his NDE. De Novo - I think you may be quite correct that what we will see is Tony's reverse path. He is doomed to repeat his old mistakes because he refuses to learn from them. Besides (and as I have suggested elsewhere), in this world it really does seem that no good deed goes unpunished.

I'll have to return to thoughts of the eight fold path after these twelve episodes have played out to see if they offer any guidance. But I continue to think this type of theme is looming large over the direction Chase has scripted this ending. Once again De Novo, thanks for starting it.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">

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[badabellisima]

Re: From your list of twelve--No.(11) birth, manifesting in one of the six realms;-- as reflected in ep11:

I was hoping someone in this thread could comment further- for example, Vito's brief remark to his wife at the skating rink about how he was thinking about them having another baby...How would this fit into your No.11? And could you comment about the six realms?

Interesting that gay Vito approaches the idea of a new birth in the family, but that the one who would do the literal birthing (Marie) just gives him the most cryptic expression in response. Difficult to read. Not exactly like the Virgin Mary at the Annunciation when asked to be the bearer of a Holy Child. Its as though they all approach the light but somehow end up falling short.

Thank you for taking on such a huge topic.This is a most fascinating and intense discussion here, and it is absolutely beyond my experience to offer very meaningful insight other than to try to see some of the connections between your lists and the episodes. I wish i could participate more but for now i am really appreciating your comments and trying to learn- coming from the particular tint of glasses of a Catholic. Even though i don't have detailed knowledge of this particular realm, it is still clear to me that your connections are correct or on target or something to that effect!

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[Pleidur]

Thank you for your clever comments about the deeper issues of the show. About the "Seven souls", I think it's more important what we see than who we see, along with the narrator's words. When talking about "the director", we see a mother. And for the remains, we both see Tony digging a hole (hin own grave?), and Junior, without his memories.

Thank you again, and greetings from Barcelona.

[Witnessnumber0]

DeNovo and everyone else...


Thanks for posting on this. I too, felt that Tony always wondered how he would have turned out if he would have left "the life". The Zen Buddhist monks calling him "Kevin Finnerty", even the previous clip of the re-run of the old "Kung Fu" episiode w/ David Carradine and Master Po(the blind Shaolin monk),etc.

Because I KNOW other members of the show wondered about it..

Adriana(when she mentions to Chris about leaving it behind and going to California), Big Puss, Vito(he should have stayed in New Hampshire) and some others too.

How many of you think that "Kevin Finnerty" really WAS who Tony would have been if he flipped?

[Witnessnumber0]

DeNovo and everyone else...


Thanks for posting on this. I too, felt that Tony always wondered how he would have turned out if he would have left "the life". The Zen Buddhist monks calling him "Kevin Finnerty", even the previous clip of the re-run of the old "Kung Fu" episiode w/ David Carradine and Master Po(the blind Shaolin monk),etc.

Because I KNOW other members of the show wondered about it..

Adriana(when she mentions to Chris about leaving it behind and going to California), Big Puss, Vito(he should have stayed in New Hampshire) and some others too.

How many of you think that "Kevin Finnerty" really WAS who Tony would have been if he flipped?